Accident procedures

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Tom Dunlap

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After ranting about Bob's alternate story about the Lakeland chipper death I got to thinking about procedures.

In the report that Bob posted it said that the crew left the scene. That wasn't reported in the other articles that I've read. Is this a case of "better" investigating on the reporters part or did something different happen. This kind of reminds me of the current cop drama that's told from several people's point of view. Same story, different perspectives.

What is the procedure on your crew for reporting and responding to a 911 emergency?

Do you have defined guidelines for when to call 911?

What level of first aid, first responder or EMT training experience would there be on your work crews?

Tom
 
If the crew did leave the jobsite before calling 911 they were probably freaked out seeing the result of a person being pulled completely through a chipper. That still does not excuse them for not calling first but that must have been a severe shock to them. Not much an EMT team could have done after that type of accident.
 
Tim,

Agreed, but that's not my point in posting this thread. If I could ask to keep this thread on topic and not let it spin off like the "Bi-annual one-handed chainsaw thread".

Could you think about what you instruct your crews to do in the case of a 911 accident?

I think that sharing the procedures that we've developed could prevent crews from "freaking out" and leaving.

Tom
 
Sorry if my post was off topic Tom. In the 34 years my father was in business there were only two injuries that required medical attention that I remember. One was a groundie getting a chip in the eye while chipping and the other was a climber putting a gaff in his heal. A standard policy did not develop because safety was our policy and I am sure a lot of luck was involved.

I work freelance now so I do not get to attend safety meetings or review the contractor’s written policy. My personal policy is anything worse than a scratch such as a deep cut or a struck by gets a 911 call or the victim gets driven to the ER if the injury is not life threatening. What type of injury do you consider a 911 accident?
 
Tim,

I'm hoping to engage more folks than you and I in this conversation. It's impossible for me to imagine that no one on this forum doesn't have something to add. How's that for a triple negative? :)

Please don't take this to be smart mouthed but I'll add my 911 parameters and accident procedures as the dialog develops. If no one wants to take up the gambit, such is life. I'd like this thread to be a learning and sharing idea thread not a lesson thread.

Tom
 
Ok, I'm willing to admit that we don't have any procedures, but I can clearly see that it's a must. If you wait until you need them, then it's probably too late.

Two things come immediately to mind:

1) access to a working phone, probably a cell phone these days

2) an accurate address or fire dept. number for the location of the job site

These would certainly shorten the response time and increase the chances of survival in an emergency.

Maybe a conversation with the local EMT/Paramedics would yield some additional ideas. A big part of their training is keeping their cool even when the situation is extreme. A plan of action would greatly increase the chances of staying cool.

Great topic!!

Gary
 
We have formal AR training that consists of a list of protcals. If the injury is on the ground we call 911 and do not leave the scene. We alsao under go fist aid and cpr training.
 
Only our crews working around primary lines carry cells phones. We have a procedure in place to contact 911 first, then the hydro authority so they can open the lines. All other crews carry radios. They are to contact the supervisor to call 911.

We had a problem with a critical injury (broken limb) when the crew did not follow procedure. They left the site with the injured worker after completing the job. The governing agency was all over us, since completing the job hampered their investigation, & we had to make sure everyone knew how to deal with such situations. It has been made clear that under no circumstances should a crew leave a site where a critical injury has occurred. First priority is to contact 911, then the supervisor. The accident is then thoroughly investigated.
 
tjk,

What level FA and CPR are yoru employees expected to complete?

The FA training that I've had started with Boy Scout's in the mid sixties. In hind sight, not too bad considering that we never had anyone besides the older scouts teaching what they's learned from the manual. I've taken First Responder and Wilderness First Responder training. Both of these certificates are expired though. Both of these courses got into the depth necessary to actually be prepared to react to an accident. Both cost over $300 several years ago so that might put the training out of reach. But, considering the cost of not having the knowledge, it's pretty cheap. Over the years I've had to rely on that training in accident scenes. I would have been at a loss without having some idea of how to react to the accident in the beginning seconds and minutes. Kind of like practicing rigging in non-critical situations so that when an emergency comes along, the crew is ready to rig.

The FA training that meets the EHAP requirements is little better than nothing.

Tom
 
Tom, in my organization we have a clearly itemized and documented set of protocols regarding this subject. Our climbers are almost always working beyond the reach of 911 services, or any other emergency response, within a time frame of usefulness in life threatening situations. We are talking over an hour in the most optimistic scenarios. Given that reality, here's the basic setup: climbing work is performed by a two-person team as a minimum, both members of which are trained and certified (perhaps a subject for another post) as climbers so as to have aerial rescue capability at all times. All climbers are advanced first aid/CPR/blood-borne pathogens trained/certified. Climber training includes rescue practicals. Each days' work location is registered with our two-way radio dispatcher, and radio contact is established from the field prior to starting climbing activities. Required gear that the team travels with includes a "rescue pack" with extensive first aid kit, air splints, extra pulleys, webbing, bee bop, headlamp, blanket, cold packs, etc. I have been climbing for 18 years...so far never needed any of it...touch wood...
 
I too did the CPR training in Scouts and in high school. I remember the basics but don't think that I could put it together and apply the procedures if needed. This is a good topic (thanks Tom) for reminding us or even just flat out making us think about it when otherwise it might have slipped our minds. It would be good to reserve some time for this kind of training for myself and anyone and everyone who might be working for me. Might even be able to organize a few local services into one large class for cheaper training costs.

I like to think that if an accident were to occur, my ground help would be smart enough to figure out the street address and call 911. Something I could do to guarantee that they know where we are is clip the current job invoice to the outside of my clipboard and make them aware of this standard.

An emergency contact listing of any employee's family should also be mandatory. Yet again, something I haven't thought about.:(

Great topic Tom, we need more business/safety oriented threads so lets keep the ideas coming.

-Mike-
:)
 
From the few posts that are here so far it seems the larger companies have very detailed procedures and have made sure employees have proper instruction. What about the small companies with only two or three employees or freelance climbers that will work with a crew for the first time? I know what I would do if one of the crew were injured but now that Tom has brought this subject up I am wondering what would happen if I had an accident while climbing.
 
Tim,Maybe with the pre job briefing you could go over some of those concerns with the people you have never or rarely work with. Tom, the FA ,CPR we have is basic the AR is fairly extensive.
 
On simple jobs I'm more lax, but with more difficult jobs I will make sure that the crew leader has a phone and knows the ddress "In case I hurt myself" but realy for everyone.

If there is no real chain of command I make sure that all people know where MY cell phone is and how to operate it. The only time I climb with the phone on me is when I forget to take it out of the pocket.

With some of the small companies out there, the crew structure can be rather ad hoc, so no one realy works together often.
 
DAn,

good point about making the 911 call.

What would you do between the time of the accident and the arrival of 911?

Are there any procedures that you follow on every job?

Keep things going, theres some good stuff coming out.

Tom
 
I've been writing recently about<b> Snap to Grid</b>, which I said was very much the "intuitive" reaction to what we bump into inside the daily conduct of our lives. There, I was speaking of learning something new and the resistances to new thinking.

Here, <b>Snap to Grid</b> involves internalizing safe practices to keep accidents and injuries at the furthest distance.

TreeCo says, <i>Going with your gut feelings is about the best you can do. </i> I think that's a recognition of Snap to Grid, but stated somewhat differently.

Necessary to every use of STG, is having references as grid points, by which we judge things and we assemble those points by experience and learning. I don't have to exactly <u>do</u> something to internalize it; I can also learn it through reading or discussion, and those examples are just as useful in assembling my personal grids.

We practice, read, and train in matters of safety, so that circumstances and issues are at least somewhat familiar to us and we can then make better informed choices about our actions. In having this forum heading, the idea was to share facts and information so that each reader might make those same decisions with a broader vision of possibilities and behavior.

The older piece I submitted included an arborist cutting a cable while he was up in a tree. I, using my own grid, could not see myself cutting any cable until I understood its purpose and what dynamic I'd introduce in cutting it.

Perhaps the arborist had gone through the same process, and then was distracted, or had forgotten the consequences. In any case, he's dead and we have a chance to learn from his mistakes. I say that consiously because "mistakes" can be facts, and we can learn from facts.

In a way, his death can have no further meaning than what we can learn from it; his family's feelings notwithstanding. We certainly shouldn't be cruel or thoughtless, and those whose spoke about the accident they way they did, deserve to be criticized, but any discussions are important, seriously important.

None of us can escape death--but we can delay it and we can keep ourselves more safe by thinking--and extending our thinking into future moments.

When my family was young, one of my preoccupations was who would take care of them if something happened to me. I kept big-time insurance and spent a lot of time on issues of personal safety. Later, when I ran crews, I could not escape the responsibility for being equally in charge of my men and their families' futures.

If this is to be a healthy productive forum, perhaps it needs a protocol of headings, locations and time as JPS suggests. It also needs some restraint and an absence of the macho moments as Walsh points out.

What was the subtlety of the crew running away in the chipper incident? Was the piece edited? Were panic and terror a part of that accident? How would we be different?

We won't be unless we have a grid. A chance to understand and review these possibilities ahead of time, internalize them and then use that grid as our gut reaction when the moment calls.


The most tragic story for me in a long time was a father who was cleaning up a windthrown tree in front of their house. The tree had pulled up a hemisphere of soil, and his daughter was playing near that hole unknown to him, when he made a cut and the tree heaved back. She was killed and I'm sure I can never known the depths of his remorse. But I can remember that tragedy in the same circumstances, and perhaps that knowledge means not repeating the same mistakes.


Was it his fault? He had the saw.

Should she have been there? Maybe not, but she was.

What would a court say? I'm not sure I'm interested in that if my first requirements are to never let the circumstances unfold. It ought to never have arrived in a court.

But, if I hadn't known the story, I could be that same father, coming around the base of a tree to discover something had been ripped out of my life.


So, I write to people with saws; and this forum exists to speak to people with saws, and up in trees, and down below, and pushing debris into chippers.

This forum is the cheapest, fastest method available to keep someone more safe, and to keep their employess more safe

Ignorance and stupidity have different definitions, but they lie at the root of most accidents--oh wait, I forgot arrogance like Alabam--and all, as we have seen, are inside our control.

But all is useless here if we don't read and we don't understand the opportunity. That I can't solve by writing--or at least, I haven't yet learned how to do it.


Bob Wulkowicz
 
I had the unfortunate experience of calling 911 last week for one of my workers.

45 yr old man the day after Cinco de Drinko (May 5th). He walked up, dropped his saw and said, "I am having a heart attack, call 911." Then he laid in the grass and remained conscious. I knew he had a heart attack 2 months ago. I just pulled out the cell phone and dialed 911, gave the address and the gate code. Told the operator that he was conscious but I couldn't find a pulse and he was cold. She said help will be there soon. Then I could hear the sirens. I knocked on the customer's door and when she answered, I said, "Don't worry, but an ambulance will be here soon. Antonio is having a heart attack." He wrote his wife's number in Mexico. The ambulance had a response time of 3-4 minutes. Of course, the homes were million dollar homes. They took him away. Eduardo called to tell the wife in Mexico. We worked the rest of the day.

Antonio is fine but I talked to him and we are not working together anymore until he takes care of himself. Drinking and chain smoking after a heart attack redefines poor decision making skills.

After the ambulance left, I went to the backyard where we were removing some large dead live oaks. He had already cut a large cookie out of the front of the largest tree with no room to drop it. He had even started the back cut. Guess that got his heart rate up.

Thanks to advise from here, I guyed the tree and removed it successfully.

The biggest help in the 911 call was having the address and gate code handy and waiting to be asked information. You talk to the operator. They know what to do. No need in shouting "give me an ambulance NOW!!!" First, state your address and then calmly give the nature of the situation.;)

Stay safe
 
Around here if you call 911 on a cell phone, you need to provide an address. Get the homeowner to call on their phone as the line provides the address, and likely directions to the place on a computer map. If it is a country or gated address if possible provide someone to stand at the gate/entrance and direct the ambulance onwards.

As for the team that ran away before the cops arrived, perhaps they were wanted in addition to being freaked out???
 
When we practice AR we are also practicing FA. We have a situation with an injured climber and the rest of the team must tend to him, whether it be calling, climbing, removeing hazards or what ever, the injury is also predeterminied and must be taken care of in the correct manner that we have been trained for.
 

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