Am I Being Taken Advantage Of?

[mtvigilante]

I work for a small but very reputable tree service. We have one tree crew and a chemical/plant health crew. The chemical division is becoming the biggest part of the business, with 4-5 people employed right now. The tree crew consists of myself and my groundman, who has been a long time friend. I started workin here almost 2 years ago, and could hardly stand on a ladder without shaking. I work real hard, and am good with saws, so he asked me to try climbing. I started small, workin with him (in the same yard and sometimes the same tree).
Within about 2 months, he asked me if I intended on going out on my own. I said yes, and he told me he would do the same thing in my position. He started climbing 30 years ago, and has climbed and trimmed 150+ feet tall Redwoods. He is what I imagine to be a true "Old School" straight laced Treeman. He has given me great instruction on climbing and our 70' hi-ranger. ISA certified, former champion climber. Anyways, he's good, and the teaches well. He knows I'm going out on my own, and says I'm ready. I do 95% of the tree jobs, alone with my groundman. This has been the case for a year now. He has a computer business as well, and likes his free time to buy his porshe he bought this year.


Long story short, instead of starting this spring, I told him I would stay for another year for stability and experience. Cant get my cert yet because of work experience. I bid jobs for him well, and get nearly every bid I write(especially if I walk through it with customer. I also regularly gross 1800-2200 a day.

He thinks I can handle almost anything with the exception of 80-120' Plains Cottonwoods and the big American Elms. Therefore, I don't have him around helping me and training me, and haven't for a year. I would feel a lot more confident if he were there working and to rescue me in case of accident.

I make 14 bucks an hour, my groundie makes 12. I have a cdl, run the crew, and face a lot of responsibility. Many times I don't even see my boss twice in a week. He blames me for all the wear and tear on his 18 year old boom, and all the other aging equipment. We barely ever get new gear or ropes.

I live 30 miles from the shop, and I can barely support my wife, 2 kids, and 3 mortgages. He even makes cracks with co-workers about my car. I work my a$$ off and get work done fast and as right as someone can with my experience.
AM I BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF? 10 HOUR DAY= $140 BEFORE TAXES ME, $120 FOR MY GROUNDMAN, 2K+ GROSS FOR THE MAN

Sorry to complain, but $20 to be the guy climbing and taking all the heat isn't much incentive. I drag brush as soon as hit the ground usually.

 

[ropensaddle]

Have you asked the same things to him? Maybe he does not
no you are feeling the way you do. That is cheap for a climber
does he pay wc on you and your groundie have you got to a
confident level of experience? You need to confront him and ask
his position.

 

[John464]

Sounds like he has a good employee. Yes, you are underpaid. My sales guys get commission and for the sale of one big job(they sell quite a few each day) they make more then you are making all day at $14 an hour. This takes them at most 1 hour.

If you are selling, which is just as important as the work itself, and doing all the work/running a crew you should be getting a nice salary. The problem may be is that you let your boss know you are planning to go out on your own. Some of of my biggest competition today is the guys that my company introduced to tree work. Now I if I know an employee is working for me and planning to soon be competiting against me I will move someone else upwards in position who I think may stick around much longer and take care of that other person for the long term benefits. I believe you may have shot yourself in the foot. I wouldn't expect a raise, not because of how well you do your job, but because you are now considered a short term investment.

 

[Timberhauler]

I make 14 bucks an hour, my groundie makes 12. I have a cdl, run the crew, and face a lot of responsibility. Many times I don't even see my boss twice in a week. He blames me for all the wear and tear on his 18 year old boom, and all the other aging equipment. We barely ever get new gear or ropes.

I live 30 miles from the shop, and I can barely support my wife, 2 kids, and 3 mortgages. He even makes cracks with co-workers about my car. I work my a$$ off and get work done fast and as right as someone can with my experience.
AM I BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF? 10 HOUR DAY= $140 BEFORE TAXES ME, $120 FOR MY GROUNDMAN, 2K+ GROSS FOR THE MAN

Sorry to complain, but $20 to be the guy climbing and taking all the heat isn't much incentive. I drag brush as soon as hit the ground usually.

I would communicate with him and let him know how you feel.Right now,I have five guys that work for me,and I try to make sure they know not to hesitate to come to me with a problem..But here is what bothered me about your story...You are driving 30 miles one way to work,then he's making cracks about your car?...I'd probably stick my foot up his a$$...Check your PM's

 

[John464]

BTW: you run a crew with only you and one guy on the ground? Not only does your company underpay they are also understafffed!

 

[mtvigilante]

the kicker to it all is that he want's to quit trimming and just do spraying! He knows that I will be his competition, but he want's good competition.

I tell him I want help all the time, but he says "oh, it's just bla bla bla, you can handle it" , "I need to do some bids", "I have a computer job to do", etc.

I am afraid if I get all jacked up in a tree, my good friend might get to watch me die as I wait for my boss to come resuce me, as the city fire dept. guys cant even do an arieal rescue (i know, i was at a seminar for ar. rescue, and so were they, they didn't even try it)

I know I have a lot to learn, but I have made him a pile of money in the last year and a half, enough to buy a 40,000 truck, a 2 week cruise, a classic, cherry porshe, etc.

I make sure we make our overhead every day, as long as we have work and weather.

I am pretty convident in my experience, I can handle most trees, he thinks i should have no prob passing the isa test. He carries wc and has 1m in ins. no benefits. 3 times last year, he gave me a bill after a hard day, basicly, that has ended. kindof a slap in the face if you ask me

 

[hornett22]

you are underpaid but.................

it sounds to me like he is trying to motivate you to move on.whether to get rid of your department or to get you to take hold of your own destiny.just my thought.you never know what motivates an employer sometimes.

i'd would communicate like the others said.you never know what could come of it.maybe he'll let you take over the tree removal side of his business.

not sure what it's like in montana but here it just seems like you get horse$hit and empty promises in this business.i know alot of tree workers around here are on drugs but i'm starting to wonder about the bosses as well.i show up,i'm sober,safe,have my own equipment,and transportation and i still get jerked around.go figure.

 

[SilentElk]

I had a boss once and this was how he based their pay when he had a say.

-How much do they need to live to get by? That's how much I pay them.

Why would he take this approach? Because if you cant save up money to be able to quit or miss work, you will show up every day and wont be able to take time off to find another job. That's pretty cold hearted but it does work. You would be surprised how many people accepted it. Ironically, he was bragging to me about making just a touch over $600,000k take home the year before yet getting him to bump my ground guy from $10 to $11 was pulling teeth. I ended up leaving. The reasons are numerous and not important here.

Back to your situation, truth be told, you did shoot yourself in the foot. Considering you were making $14 an hour, then you told him you would give it another year. This conveys to him that, you are happy where you are at. Any chance you mentioned increased pay or any any other benifit of perk? I mean mentioned directly what you wanted, not just hints or mild suggestions or jokes with under tones of truth.

If you have not told him these things then no, he is not taking advantage of you. If you had asked him or voiced some of your monetary concerns to him and he made false promises that he didnt follow through, then yes he would be taking advantage of you. Since, you have not told him these things, he is not. You are not in a situation where you have to work or starve. I suspect you could find enough work within a week of leaving to make you regular wage easy enough.

Personally, I would either voice my concerns or walk. I can tell you worried about financial circumstances but it wont be a better time than now when the trees are greening up. Partner up, so to speak, with a another small guy who has a big chipper and pay them to chip your piles.

I used to have all these weird problems and situations in my life. Not exactly yours but it was always something, you know what I mean? I solved that a few years back. You know how? One day I just started saying what was on my mind and started telling people what I wanted and what I expected. If I was in a situation I didnt like, I told them what needed to change. And when I said I would do something, I made sure I did it. Not in the pig headed way but you get my meaning.

Take control. Working for him is fine but tell him what you want and be confident in it. Say you need a raise. Tell him $17 an hour, heck make it $18. If he says it, you have to earn it, tell him it is time to part ways. But if you part ways, he will ask you to stay awhile. This is where good nature gets taken advantage if you arent careful. A couple more jobs will turn into weeks, then months and likely you wont get more than your $14 an hour.

I am rambling and should go, but just stop sometimes and look at the big picture. Do what is right for you. Being nice is fine as long, as it is what is right for you.

Best of luck.

 

[jmack]

sounds like your an excellent climber, anyway, tell him you need to sit down and talk to him after work , mention you need more money to get by, dont waste your time by worrying about your bosses porsche vacays or cruises start by thinking what you need, new truck, more guys, more money, start a little high but leave wiggle room for a comprimise, have #s in your mind goodluck

 

[Munkee feet]

I say leave him NOW

You say you are doing around $2000.00 a day...I say go, leave, and you and your groundie work one day a week and call it even. No need for any conversation with anybody. Period. Munkeeft

 

[treesquirrel]

What are you waiting for?

Its time to go go go!

 

[alanarbor]

What about opening a dialog regarding buying the Tree work portion of his company off him, perhaps a percentage over time buyout, then you can run it as you see fit, plus you'll be set w/equipment, clients, and a business name they know. Odds are the money he's making to buy all that new stuff is coming from the spraying, and his computer business. Tree work is overhead intensive, and often harder to make a profit in than PHC or IT.

 

[Pilsnaman]

The short answer is yes you are being taken advantage of. If you are the head/only climber and run the crew there is no reason for the low pay. Should you have told him you wanted to leave in the near future? I have always heard that is a bad idea until you start looking and he asks, then be honest. If he asks and you are thinking about it but not seriously looking then say, "no I am not looking." Just remember that he is looking out for himself at all times so you need to look out for yourself in the same way. Also, if you are selling work there is no reason for not getting some kick-back on each sale. Just MHO, I may be way out in left field (oh I see a pretty butterfly out here!!!:jester: )

 

[mtvigilante]

WOW!! you guys are great! thanks for all the good advice and keep it comin, i like to learn from as many people as i can.

I think that I am too loyal, and will go to the gates of hell for anyone I work for. A little history.... I've been a cattle trailer mechanic/aluminum welder for almost 3 years, worked a lumberyard (as a foreman eventually) for 6 bucks an hour, and I worked my way up on a highway cracksealing crew makin 27 bucks an hour.
When I work, I am the one drivin everyone else to be the best, leading by example. Our old cracksealin crew Is famous for our production and quality, the state inspectors had to drive to keep up with us walkin with 900lb pavement cutters and kettles. If I can keep a crew of 12 givin it 150% for 14-16 hours a day without stopping for lunch, I should be able to make it on my own. Now I do it here, but it's hard on my groundman, because i've had to train him while i'm in the tree, I have to yell to get his attention, and it makes him a little bitter. He still does stupid stuff sometimes, like draggin my rope to the chipper with the brush etc. But I know he's tryin, so I gotta keep my cool.
My boss has known I wanted to go on my own since I got hired at $10 an hour. he's always been good about raises, but he's never paid a climber more than $15 an hour. No wonder nobody stays around. When I told him I would stay another year, I told him that I wanted to learn more, and that I wanted to go to Denver in January for the progreen expo, and I wanted to go to Hawaii for the ISA convention this summer. He told me that I could go to one or the other. As he said this, he insinuated that the Denver deal would be better for my education and that Hawaii would be in the busy season. I fell for it....Denver sucked, he told me he would try to fudge for me a little on the work experience so So i could get certified. I've worked trees a little before I started for him, so he said it should be no problem. A few weeks later, he said he wouldn't, and that he couldn't go because his wife thinks he's cheating with our chemical supervisor who would be going. I got $230 to live on for 7 days in downtown Denver, and he made me get recipts for all of it...could you eat for 7 days on $230 there? It cost me an extra $200, right in the off season when i didnt have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out, not another word from him about it.

Now no chance of going to the ISA convention and competing for climbing, what a burn.

I think I should have just stood tall and said I wanted to go to Hawaii anyways, damn what he thinks. But I was loyal and let him talk me out of it.

How do I tell him that I'm going before my year is up? He knows that other tree services call me up and try to snake me from him all the time-guarantees of $20+ an hour. I wouldn't work for them for all the money in the world, they're hacks with bad reputations, and i told him that.
He also knows that I can charge what he does for a lot of things, as i'm the one doing the job either way.

I want to leave, but He's counting on me every day...and I cant afford to have a week's break in the paychecks. Ads cost $, my pickup has no hood or plates or insurance. I cant afford the 700 it costs to start my insurance...I don't want to be known as just another fool with a pickup and a chainsaw and a buddy. I will have to borrow to get started, or make 20+ an hour for a month or more to pay these things.

AWWWWW This sucks! I have no side jobs right now because i cant afford to advertise, I guess I will put out flyers again, and maybe have my friend that runs a radio station hook me up with some spots...need insurance first though.

I feel like a horse that's been rode hard and put away wet. have to be responsible for anything i damage, but don't get the big check.

I want to take over the trimming business, and he's made a comment in passing when i was talkin about the guys in the state who have got 250k grants for bio-fuel chip equipment etc. He said "why don't you get a grant and buy my business?" I told him we'd have to talk about it, and that was the end of that. I'm sure he wants way more than it's worth, the boom hasn't been inspected since 2002, and probably is on it's way out. He's said he won't sell customers, as it's up to you to keep them, so you cant put a price on it.

Cant' stand to even go to work anymore, but can't leave him hangin, as he's taught me most of what i know.

:angry2:

 

[Timberhauler]

I personally feel like you have paid your dues to this fella...If you have someone else offering you 20 bucks an hour,then why don't you tell him and see how he responds?If he needs you that bad,then he should up the ante..As far as going out on your own...If you wait until the timing is perfect,you will be waiting all of your life...Starting a business is a gamble,you've just gotta get in there and play!

 

[old dude]

percentage option

Dear taken advantage of--
Man! How does your boss sleep at night? Maybe it's just because I went to a seriously liberal arts school but I have always held to the belief that any worker assigned to a job have a vested interest in the job. To that end i have always paid my groundies not by the hour but rather by a percentage of the gross after expenses. Currently my favorite working associate is paid 40% to my 60%. My equipment plus my client plus my sale justifies the difference.
I'll never get rich doing it this way but in 30yrs. of practice I've had only a handful of assistants. Fair trade for quality tradesmen.

 

[Timberhauler]

I wish I could pay my guys more than I do...I give them extras whenever I can,and sometimes even hand them smaller jobs that they can do without my equipment.....Because of this,I could call any of them at 5 AM on a Sunday morning,and they would be on the job right away if needed...My father and I never got along that great,but one thing he's always told me is "you're only as good as your help,so ya' better take care of em'".

 

[clearance]

I wish I could pay my guys more than I do...I give them extras whenever I can,and sometimes even hand them smaller jobs that they can do without my equipment.....Because of this,I could call any of them at 5 AM on a Sunday morning,and they would be on the job right away if needed...My father and I never got along that great,but one thing he's always told me is "you're only as good as your help,so ya' better take care of em'".

Very true, how often people forget.

 

[bendtrees]

A couple things to consider:
A. What he has paid climbers in the past is pretty much irrelevant if your living in the bozone (my guess). Here's how I see the economics: He made good money in CA and moved to MT to buy on the cheap. Land values skyrocket, because this has been so common since "A River Runs...." Now, do wages rise at the same rate as land? NO! Blue collars (native or non-native) who don't own property are behind the 8-ball. Or, in your case you are working for 90's wages while land values doubled. Retirees on fixed incomes get hosed the worst but you are right behind them unless you advocate for a decent wage.
B. I'm not complaining about transplants into MT. I'm just sharing how I see it. Locals gotta step up and charge what they perceive as "unfair" if they want to own a home (w/o multiple mortgages).
C. I have always viewed my wages as what I charge my boss.
D. I think you know what youre worth.
E. Although renting (equip.) sucks, it might be the answer for you to leave this guy pronto and start making money tommorrow. From what I remember the reqs. to be legit in MT are pretty easy.
F. I'm just a MT guy who couldn't afford to stay.

 

[NickfromWI]

Sounds like he has a good employee. Yes, you are underpaid. My sales guys get commission and for the sale of one big job(they sell quite a few each day) they make more then you are making all day at $14 an hour. This takes them at most 1 hour.

If you are selling, which is just as important as the work itself, and doing all the work/running a crew you should be getting a nice salary. The problem may be is that you let your boss know you are planning to go out on your own. Some of of my biggest competition today is the guys that my company introduced to tree work. Now I if I know an employee is working for me and planning to soon be competiting against me I will move someone else upwards in position who I think may stick around much longer and take care of that other person for the long term benefits. I believe you may have shot yourself in the foot. I wouldn't expect a raise, not because of how well you do your job, but because you are now considered a short term investment.

No way. If someone tells you they are thinking of leaving, and they are worth KEEPING, then pay them. The small raise you give them could keep them around for a lot longer. One less company to compete with.

People work better when they work together. If I'm thinking of leaving for whatever reason, I share that info with the superiors.

love
nick