We are a two man operation. I climb. Before I was the climber, I was the ground guy in a two man operation. I had it set in my head that if he can climb to get a branch, I should generally be able to move it to the truck in the same amount of time. At least for trims. I tried to keep up as best I could. Generally did well with it. I really hustled. I didnt feel I should ask the climber to be doing ground work after he got down. Sometimes he would help for a few minutes, usually I handled it pretty well. My ground guy has excellent judgement and does an excellent job of roping, but I suspect he's dragging his feet so that I can do a lot of the ground work with him when I'm done climbing. He has never done any climbing and doesn't understand just how gruelling it can be. I totally love it, dont misunderstand me, but its 50 times more difficult than ground work. Generally, less than 1/3 of the ground work is done when I get down from a trim. I've pretty much never come out of the tree to find the ground work nearly complete. Getting out of the tree means the work is a little better than half way over for the day. I know most crews have two or three ground guys, but we cant really afford that just yet, and we're getting a ton done with the two of us. What do you guys expect of your ground guys?
Am I expecting too much from one ground guy?
- Thread starter baquila
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
What do you mean "I suspect he is dragging his feet"? is he or isnt he? you should be able to tell. I got two kids and they do allright when the brush is falling, but I still gotta crack the whip-wich I'm not so good at anymore, I get sick of listening to myself talk. Consider yourself lucky if he at least shows up, thats alot for starters, mine blew me off today, they just cant seem to keep it going, but it is saturday and they are kids (24 and 27) what can you do? One thing that bothers me is if I'm busting my a$$ doing a huge prune (wich aint to often as I hate pruning) and they are bored watching me, but they should be able to anticipate that they'll have a second to run in and grab a branch or two, but no gotta tell em to. Then when I'm down there is still brush and raking?? Grrr.
Just my uninformed opinion:
If most crews have 2 or 3 ground guys is it really fair for you to expect one ground guy to do the work of 2 or 3? I understand what you mean when you say you have the more strenuous part of the job, but that does not change the fact that you expect him to do the work of 2 or 3 just because you can't afford it. Also making that statement makes me wonder if you are paying him the going rate for that kind of work, that may have alot to do with his work practices if he knows he could make more money elsewhere.You also say you are getting a ton of work done with just the 2 of you, leads me to wonder.. is he really that bad or do you just expect to climb and not do the "grunt work"?
not bashing you in any way, you asked for opinions I am just trying to give you a possible answer to your question.
Dave
Last edited:
Baquilla, I think you have gotten some "real life" answers here and possibly food for thought. I will put my 2 cents in.
First thought - Everyone ALWAYS thinks they are doing all (or the hard part of) the work. Climbers do have a very physical job but, as you know but don't forget, so does the ground crew. I am absolutely SURE that sometimes David stays up in the tree UNTIL he sees that I am done with the cleanup. (Blasted prima dona climbers.) :hmm3grin2orange:
David and I also are just a two person show and I always take pride when I can have the job finished up, or virtually so, by the time he is out of the tree. There is incentive there, though. The faster we, as the team, get the job done, the better our hourly rate is. If we are working on an hourly rate for the client, the better deal we are giving them; they appreciate the hard work; they call us back; satisfied client = repeat customer.
If you are "getting a ton of work done" then I would say, that's pretty good. Some people are the "slow and steady" but they are reliable and stick with it. If you have to help with the clean up sometimes, that might be the price you have to pay for a reliable and good worker. If you want more out of him, possibly an incentive (a piece of the pie not just hourly wage)?
Sylvia
First thought - Everyone ALWAYS thinks they are doing all (or the hard part of) the work. Climbers do have a very physical job but, as you know but don't forget, so does the ground crew. I am absolutely SURE that sometimes David stays up in the tree UNTIL he sees that I am done with the cleanup. (Blasted prima dona climbers.) :hmm3grin2orange:
David and I also are just a two person show and I always take pride when I can have the job finished up, or virtually so, by the time he is out of the tree. There is incentive there, though. The faster we, as the team, get the job done, the better our hourly rate is. If we are working on an hourly rate for the client, the better deal we are giving them; they appreciate the hard work; they call us back; satisfied client = repeat customer.
If you are "getting a ton of work done" then I would say, that's pretty good. Some people are the "slow and steady" but they are reliable and stick with it. If you have to help with the clean up sometimes, that might be the price you have to pay for a reliable and good worker. If you want more out of him, possibly an incentive (a piece of the pie not just hourly wage)?
Sylvia
Well, there is no question that he is not "hustling" most of the time and when I do take a moment to randomly check on what he's doing, which is rare, a lot of times it's either texting someone, having a cigarette, or standing with his hands on his hips watching me. Yes he works, but even when he is working I wouldnt call it "hustling".
As far as asking one man to do the work of two or three, there is no question I expect a lot of people - and I expect more of myself than anybody else. I always do the hardest, most dangerous work myself. I do the climbing, and when it comes to moving material on the ground, I move all the big stuff and leave the little branches to him. So it's definitely "lead by example", not "be a lazy fat-ass and yell at people all day".
I certainly dont mind doing some ground work when I get down, but often times I look around and think "my God, why is there still tons and tons to drag out of here?"
But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he's doing all he can and it just "seems" like more should be done. Hard to say when you're in the tree. But I'm on the east coast and most of our work is trimming 40-60 foot maples (especially silver maples), walnuts, and oaks - that have a rather large crown and a dozen or two branches to trim on various parts of the tree. So it takes a while to move around these crowns and it seems to me if I can climb up the tree, get over to a limb, get safely tied in twice, make the cut, and then work my way 20 feet horizontally to the next one to be cut, it shouldnt take much longer than that to drag those branches to the truck.
As far as pay goes, I guarantee $500 cash/week whether we work or not - even in the winter. So more often than not he's getting paid for work he isn't doing. We put in maybe 30 hours/week on average. In the winter, much less. I also pick him up and drop him off every day so he isnt spending his gas money to get to work. So the pay I believe is quite fair.
And no need to apologize for what may seem a harsh statement or criticism of me - I want straight-forward, honest opinions and if I'm wrong I want to know I'm wrong so I dont mess up a good thing for myself.
As far as asking one man to do the work of two or three, there is no question I expect a lot of people - and I expect more of myself than anybody else. I always do the hardest, most dangerous work myself. I do the climbing, and when it comes to moving material on the ground, I move all the big stuff and leave the little branches to him. So it's definitely "lead by example", not "be a lazy fat-ass and yell at people all day".
I certainly dont mind doing some ground work when I get down, but often times I look around and think "my God, why is there still tons and tons to drag out of here?"
But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he's doing all he can and it just "seems" like more should be done. Hard to say when you're in the tree. But I'm on the east coast and most of our work is trimming 40-60 foot maples (especially silver maples), walnuts, and oaks - that have a rather large crown and a dozen or two branches to trim on various parts of the tree. So it takes a while to move around these crowns and it seems to me if I can climb up the tree, get over to a limb, get safely tied in twice, make the cut, and then work my way 20 feet horizontally to the next one to be cut, it shouldnt take much longer than that to drag those branches to the truck.
As far as pay goes, I guarantee $500 cash/week whether we work or not - even in the winter. So more often than not he's getting paid for work he isn't doing. We put in maybe 30 hours/week on average. In the winter, much less. I also pick him up and drop him off every day so he isnt spending his gas money to get to work. So the pay I believe is quite fair.
And no need to apologize for what may seem a harsh statement or criticism of me - I want straight-forward, honest opinions and if I'm wrong I want to know I'm wrong so I dont mess up a good thing for myself.
Sad but true in this buisiness I think some of the people that get the most out of thier help are screamers, me, sometimes, but more often than not as I've said its just too tiring for me so I let things go on like that. My help does best with takedowns, I think some people just need it to be all spelled out for them and get bored waiting for twigs to fall. Just an observation. As far as the cell phone texting goes, that I just could not tolerate, it would bring out the old school "screamer" in me, lol. All that said I got rid of this lazy sack that I used to have (bad knee, non work related) forever, and have been strugglng ever sinse with help, at least he showed up.
$500 a week? untaxed or taxed? this may be a problem in its own right, If you`re operating off the books he may feel that any day/week/month could be his last!! hence......"why bust azz when I may not be here tommorrow"
when I first started I had 1 groundie & we did alot of work...however!!! I in noway expected him to have the whole mess or 3/4 of it done when I came down!!! depending on the type of work, Removals...they`ll never keep up, Fine prunings & involved rope work....YES!! you may be expecting more from him than what you could even do in the given situation!!
We as climbers/bucket operators just want to get our work done thinking that as soon as we`re done.... off to the next one.....Groundies have a little bit more BS at times, 100ft uphill/downhill drag, dodging limbs/logs, keeping people outta the work zone, being asked a dumb question from the home owner, running ropes, chipping brush, cutting the y off the half tree you just had them rope down so they can even drag it, etc...
I used to think like you, I suggest to get another ground guy!!! if not you`ll lose em & you`ll really be :censored: , & if you think you`re to good to help on the ground or can do it faster!!!! I suggest going out & being a groundman for someone just like you for a week or more at the pay rate your groundie makes...........you will be a changed man!! & will have a new appreciation for what he does do!!
I know this to be true Mon-Thur....I do all the aerial work, Fri & Sat....My other guy does the aerial work.....while Im on the ground with my guys, very humbling.....& keeps me in touch with what I might overlook! try it!!
LXT.............
I help on the ground-in the form of running the tractor or using the chipper winch/cutting stuff. Does that count?
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
First rule shuld now be cell and smokes in the truck. Many clients hate to see people smoking on their lawn, finding burned butts in the grass...
Tell him he can ave a smoke when you have your water.
Cell/text??? No freaking way, I'm paying to work and spot me. I know of no other work environment where this is allowed.
Most people who run a business are disappointed when measuring others against how they do what they do. You need to allow him to grow into the position by building the expectations as you go.
Otherwise put out another add and winnow the chaff, work two guys till you find the one you really want to work with.
Tell him he can ave a smoke when you have your water.
Cell/text??? No freaking way, I'm paying to work and spot me. I know of no other work environment where this is allowed.
Most people who run a business are disappointed when measuring others against how they do what they do. You need to allow him to grow into the position by building the expectations as you go.
Otherwise put out another add and winnow the chaff, work two guys till you find the one you really want to work with.
highasatree
ArboristSite Operative
I usually have 2, but mostly 3 ground men on most jobs. I look at it this way. For what one of my groundies can do for $15.00 an hour, it will make it that much more easier for me. and more hands make lighter work.
D Mc
ArboristSite Operative
Baquila, welcome to the business side of tree work.
You have been a groundman, and from the sounds of it a good one. Now you are a climber, giving you the benefit of the doubt, we will assume you are competent at that also. Now comes the business part.
Sounds like you have the work, which is more than a lot of folks can say. The trick is accomplishing that work without pulling your hair out and alienating everyone around you. Not everyone is cut out for this.
Find out what is not working for you and fix it. Don't just let it ride. If his texting bothers you, let him know. Maybe keep phone calls to lunch time or specified breaks.
Leading by example works with 3 and 4 year olds but may not work so well with some employees. They will respect the boss who gets in there and works his tail off right along side them, but it takes more than respect to get the job done. If they know that there are no consequences for not doing their work, why should they change? It is the reverse side of incentives. It is amazing how an incentive will produce a better work ethic. Guaranteed pay is a security blanket which may maintain an employee but not necessarily encourage him to work.
As the employer you need to take charge. You may be wrong sometimes but that's ok because you are still the leader of the company. It is what your clients want to see and is what your employee needs to see.
Good luck.
Dave
You have been a groundman, and from the sounds of it a good one. Now you are a climber, giving you the benefit of the doubt, we will assume you are competent at that also. Now comes the business part.
Sounds like you have the work, which is more than a lot of folks can say. The trick is accomplishing that work without pulling your hair out and alienating everyone around you. Not everyone is cut out for this.
Find out what is not working for you and fix it. Don't just let it ride. If his texting bothers you, let him know. Maybe keep phone calls to lunch time or specified breaks.
Leading by example works with 3 and 4 year olds but may not work so well with some employees. They will respect the boss who gets in there and works his tail off right along side them, but it takes more than respect to get the job done. If they know that there are no consequences for not doing their work, why should they change? It is the reverse side of incentives. It is amazing how an incentive will produce a better work ethic. Guaranteed pay is a security blanket which may maintain an employee but not necessarily encourage him to work.
As the employer you need to take charge. You may be wrong sometimes but that's ok because you are still the leader of the company. It is what your clients want to see and is what your employee needs to see.
Good luck.
Dave
You guys are giving some AWESOME insights into this whole situation...I really appreciate it and I enjoy pondering the nuances of this topic. There is always a fine line with everything and figuring out where to draw it is key!
I am always one to push and push for more out of myself but this guy is my best friend of 23 years and is a tremendous asset to have around. Might I add he ALSO does most of our estimates, without my help, and does an excellent job with pricing and his personality is outstanding. But like every successful business, we have to always learn to do more, and do it better, or we'll die a quick, harsh death and I'm just trying to guage how to become more efficient - which of course means getting more out of what you already have whenever possible. Throwing more money at all of your problems is suicide for anyone and we know that. But abusing your crew and equipment is just as lethal - so it's always a fine line.
The $500 is cash untaxed and this guy certainly knows I'm in it for the long haul. I'm 100% dedicated to this, always have been, and so there is no problem with the "fly-by-night" or "die-the-next-day" fears.
I have done a lot of ground work, and do every day when I get down from the tree, so I know it is slow, tedious, and difficult. I'm certainly not considering getting rid of this guy - no way - I'm just wondering if I can get more efficient by asking more, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree.
One subject that interests me is the "cracking the whip" thing. If you guys have watched "Deadliest Catch", "Axe Men", or "Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares", unfortunately it seems the best boats, the best logging crews, and the best restaurants are run by the most hardass bosses. They push and push and push and never take any #### from anyone. I try to be mellow and have a lot of fun - keeping in mind I'm working with my best friend - but I'm starting to see that we have to get more productivity than we are getting meaning more long days and faster work. I dont want to become an :censored: , but the business has to succeed and I'm thinking I'm going to have to demand more whether it goes over well or not.
I am always one to push and push for more out of myself but this guy is my best friend of 23 years and is a tremendous asset to have around. Might I add he ALSO does most of our estimates, without my help, and does an excellent job with pricing and his personality is outstanding. But like every successful business, we have to always learn to do more, and do it better, or we'll die a quick, harsh death and I'm just trying to guage how to become more efficient - which of course means getting more out of what you already have whenever possible. Throwing more money at all of your problems is suicide for anyone and we know that. But abusing your crew and equipment is just as lethal - so it's always a fine line.
The $500 is cash untaxed and this guy certainly knows I'm in it for the long haul. I'm 100% dedicated to this, always have been, and so there is no problem with the "fly-by-night" or "die-the-next-day" fears.
I have done a lot of ground work, and do every day when I get down from the tree, so I know it is slow, tedious, and difficult. I'm certainly not considering getting rid of this guy - no way - I'm just wondering if I can get more efficient by asking more, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree.
One subject that interests me is the "cracking the whip" thing. If you guys have watched "Deadliest Catch", "Axe Men", or "Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares", unfortunately it seems the best boats, the best logging crews, and the best restaurants are run by the most hardass bosses. They push and push and push and never take any #### from anyone. I try to be mellow and have a lot of fun - keeping in mind I'm working with my best friend - but I'm starting to see that we have to get more productivity than we are getting meaning more long days and faster work. I dont want to become an :censored: , but the business has to succeed and I'm thinking I'm going to have to demand more whether it goes over well or not.
And therein lies one of your BIGGEST problems. Friends do NOT make good business partners, and like it or not, if he is doing most of your estimates and pricing WITHOUT your help, he IS a partner and may see himself as one, except without an equal slice of the pie. This can breed discontent wether he shows it or not.
Your first mistake was hiring a friend, especially one of 23 years as they certainly expect more than the average joe. I know, been there done that. I also had to "fire" this longtime friend of mine after he figured it was alright to show up late for work repeatedly with a dunkin donuts coffee in his hand. Thats right, not only was he late but he took the time while being late to stop and get a coffee. The last day he was late, I had specifically told him not to be late because the concrete truck was going to be there at 8 am and I was the only other one there. Well, he left me high and dry, came in 2-1/2 hours late with a freaking coffee in his hand! Needless to say, he was sent home without doing any work and that was the last day he worked for me. He had also walked off of a job because it was raining... I was getting wet too, but he just walked to his truck and sat there. I stopped the job that day and sent him home. He had been with me for 3 years. but, business is business and friends are friends. you should NEVER mix the 2.
Last edited:
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
If the ground work is not done on trimming or piece downs he is a slacker.
I would not let my first foreman touch brush as that was my job. He always
bragged on me and when we did side work would ask what I would charge
to clean up the brush off that tree and I; knowing how long it would take
me could give him my price and he always smiled. The dern kids today have
been so friggin pampered it aint funny. I work me and my wife now because
she can out work most of the boys we have seen. I don't get angry with
her and end up doing most of the ground work myself, because if I pay
someone besides my wife, they better buck up and do the job. If I see
a hustle I will help, but if I see hands in pockets phones in ear, it is their
only and last day. I have a sub good climber and groundy that works hard
and I pay him fair but no worky no pay or little pay. I have came down and escorted people back to their cars with a one hour retirement check it is
only right I pay to work!
I would not let my first foreman touch brush as that was my job. He always
bragged on me and when we did side work would ask what I would charge
to clean up the brush off that tree and I; knowing how long it would take
me could give him my price and he always smiled. The dern kids today have
been so friggin pampered it aint funny. I work me and my wife now because
she can out work most of the boys we have seen. I don't get angry with
her and end up doing most of the ground work myself, because if I pay
someone besides my wife, they better buck up and do the job. If I see
a hustle I will help, but if I see hands in pockets phones in ear, it is their
only and last day. I have a sub good climber and groundy that works hard
and I pay him fair but no worky no pay or little pay. I have came down and escorted people back to their cars with a one hour retirement check it is
only right I pay to work!
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
Ohhhhhh now, I don't blame him he was afraid he would melt come on man have a heart!:angel:
What Rope said. A good ground guy should be able to keep up on trims like you are talking about, at least ones where they aren't needed on the other end of the rigging rope. It's very hard work though so the guy who is both willing and able to work hard enough to keep up is the exception.
treemandan
Tree Freak
I didn't read anything but the post headline and my answer is YES! 2 guys are quickly overcome pretty quickly. I could go into more specifics but I will just say this: I try very hard to put everything down nice for the groundies and when I hit the ground I grab some brush and start dragging. If you have some pretentious climber afraid to bend over... well its hard work but wtf?
A 2 man crew will die or just be very slow but if you give them jobs for a two man crew they might be OK if they want to work toghether. I am aware that I said quickly twice; are you?
A 2 man crew will die or just be very slow but if you give them jobs for a two man crew they might be OK if they want to work toghether. I am aware that I said quickly twice; are you?
treemandan
Tree Freak
There are way to many phone calls being made and not just in this industry where its stupid and dangerous. One thing: I can never figure out who these people are calling.
Ever drop a limb on somebody who walks under yapping? I think its an addiction like crack. I understand certain contacts have to be kept up throughout the day( wife, kids,doctor, etc) but it seems I look down and see 3 people holding the phone to thier ear. If this keeps up soon the mexicans will be doing it.
Sunrise Guy
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ground work is HARDER than climbing, as I see it, if the climber is getting limbs dropped quickly, one right after another. I love climbing, but I understand that I've got to give my groundie a break and let him get things to the truck before I send down my fifth or sixth limb of the day. It is totally unreasonable, again, as I see it, to expect a lone groundie to keep up with you, limb for limb. I also am not the type of climber who is "above" grabbing brush once I get down. If I was a groundie working with a climber who was, I'd tell him to stick it somewhere other than in the chipper feed. Having started out being a groundie, I know from experience which gig is more tiring, more boring, and I'll climb for hours rather than haul brush for a single hour if I can help it. When I work with only one groundie, I can't help it, so I dig in, once I'm back on the ground. As far as the imbeciles on Axe Men, if one of those fat-:censored: :censored: 's yelled in my face, I would leave the gig in a NY minute, right after I decked the stupid :censored: . You might think that those types of bosses get the most done, but they also have the greatest turnover, and that can kill a business, as I've seen it happen, more than a few times.
Good to hear that working with your lady works out rope, I tried that a few times myself with my ex in the old days, not so much, most memorable was me (disclaimer
ld days) all hung over workin wiith this hillbilly friend fer some out of towners, she ended up crying on the lawn and sitting in a heap sayin how much she hated me. lol. I was like "ya cant cry! yer a treeworker now!"-I think I really just wanted her to see what I had to do to make the bills and was perhaps a little too stern. lol. RAKE!! FASTER!!
ld days) all hung over workin wiith this hillbilly friend fer some out of towners, she ended up crying on the lawn and sitting in a heap sayin how much she hated me. lol. I was like "ya cant cry! yer a treeworker now!"-I think I really just wanted her to see what I had to do to make the bills and was perhaps a little too stern. lol. RAKE!! FASTER!!Similar threads
