any ideas for efficiency help?

[defensiblespace]

Hi, new to the forum here. I live in the Sierras and have been specializing in defensible space for about 4 years. Most of what we do is brush cutting and removing some trees as well, although I am not a climber. After I go through and cut the trees, I have a crew that picks up the slash and put it into small piles. They lasso the piles and pick them up and carry them to the road for stacking. I recently purchased a quad that I try to use for much of the hauling, but it is not perfect. Some slash we can stack on the racks of the quad and the rest we drag with a lasso. Any ideas to make the quad work more to our advantage would be helpful. I have looked at trailers for the quad, but have yet to find something that would work well for brush. The other idea that I have is using the quad to pull a chipper and chipping onto the ground when permissible. Our quad is a Kawasaki Brute Force 650 4x4 with a 1,250 lb towing capacity. I know that kind of limits me as far as chippers go, but any ideas on smaller chippers that kick ass would be helpful as I have never owned a chipper before. Ultimately, I would like to have a track loader with some grapples on it, but it is hard to justify spending that kind of money when you are only cranking for 4 months out of the year. Any ideas that anybody can throw at me would be helpful as I'm sure a lot of you here have even more experience than I do. Thanks for reading.

 

[southsoundtree]

What kind of brush and volume per day are you doing? What kind of lot size and terrain for quad/ trailer?

If it is somewhat small, then a small trailer behind the quad could be useful. I put the brush from 4 smallish, 35' alders (like aspens) into my 4x8x2 folding trailer (250# empty, and readily available used, cheap) level full to the top of the wooden box, by laying some whole 8' length branches in first. Then add more brush and criss-cross cut, and stomp down. Add more, cut, stomp, add, stomp, add, cut stomp...add a top layer of whole branches to hold down the smaller, cut stuff, tie down and drive to the dump.

When we got the job, my new groundie asked if I was sure we didn't need our chipper (I also have a box on my p/u with a full bed and 3' sides, so about 8x6x4.5', so between the truck and trailer about 7 cu. yards). We fit it all the brush in the trailer, level with the top of the sides, with room for the wood if we would have needed to haul it in the bed of the truck, or room for a quad in the p/u!

If you lay a rope across the trailer before loading, then load as described, you'll be set up for dumping. Tie a running bowline around the brush, tie the other end off to a stationary object and drive away. The running bowline will compact the brush, pulling it away from the side walls of the trailer and it will slide right out. Also, you can keep the trailer stationary, and tow the brush out of it with another vehicle, Maasdam rope puller, 3:1 pulley system, etc.
Low cost, compact, and useful for trailering other things as well.

I was able to grab the lower, uncut alder branches, and by myself pull the load out of the trailer in about 2 minutes at the dump. I unstrapped the tie-downs, unloaded a few armloads from the top (the top, uncut layer comes off easily, and the criss-cross cut layers come apart really easily, unlike a compacted, uncut brush pile/ trailer load). With that extra weight off, the rest just slid out most of the way, then I drove forward 2' and the rest just flopped out.

Sometimes this is easier than hauling a 4400' chipper behind the 1/2 ton p/u, and add to that the chip weight (not much in this case), then unload by pitchfork.

Not worth bringing the 14 cu. yd. chip truck for such a small job. Got it all done and dumped, gross revenue of $100+/ hour for this easy job.



Also, I suggest that you can get lots of Lean, Clean, and Green information from TRPA Tahoe Regional Planning Agency, and others for homeowners, and offer planting of appropriate species in addition to fuel reduction. Diversification of services is good to get yourself more customers, if you want them.

 

[southsoundtree]

You might have to go to Reno for a rental chipper, which would not work out very well unless you can get a weekly/ monthly rate and have work booked, but you can get a vermeer 600/ 625, with feed wheels which you'll want for brush, that would handle your brush load. You can blow them into a pile or into your pick-up truck with a box on the bed. Pretty light weight chipper.

What are you doing with your brush once its to the road?

 

[defensiblespace]

All very sound advice southsoundtree. My problem does not lie with getting the brush to the dump. I have a 3/4 ton truck with a 10 yard dumping trailer. The part that takes up the most time is getting the brush to the road. We are doing some good size lots. Some of them are close to an acre and a lot of them are on steep hillsides or very rough terrain. Most of my labor is spent on guys carrying the stuff to the road. We cut about 65% snowbrush with the rest being manzanita and small fir trees. Some of these lots are so thick with brush that you can barely walk through them, especially the higher elevation, post burn areas. The snowbrush just loves that environment. If I could haul a small chipper around on some of these properties, it would eliminate the carrying for the crew. They could just chip the stuff on the spot and save the sore backs for later. Also, a more efficient way of carrying the slash with the quad would be helpful as well. We would still have to get it to the road, but at least the quad can haul more than one person in less time. I think about it being like a three step process. Step one, cut. Step two, pile. Step three, carry or haul. Basically what I am trying to do is eliminate a step. The quad still has to carry, so it does not eliminate a step, only makes one of the steps easier. I don't know. I might be doing it the easiest way possible, but I am always trying to think outside of the box to see if there is a more efficient way. Thanks for reading.

 

[defensiblespace]

Oh yeah. Most of the green stuff is chipped by the homeowners associations around here. We only have to haul the dead stuff. The green stuff we stack on the road and put a chipping tag on it. Good to go.

 

[Saw Dust Smoken]

4-wheeler

When doing brush pull out. Have each pile tied with running bowline and ready for hauling. I have short pieces of rope dedicated for this purpose. The 4-whler only stop for a quick tie on back.

 

[defensiblespace]

I have found that a noose like the bowling tied around the center of the pile of slash and then a half hitch tied towards the front of the pile, usually somewhere around the butts of the branches works great to keep the pile going in a straight line behind the four wheeler as opposed to turning perpendicular to the run. Makes the going much easier. But I agree, having several piles already tied so the four wheeler has no waiting time is the key to keeping things moving quickly.

 

[thansen]

Go to my website, you will see a lot of pics of the equipment I use in my fuel reduction business. If you have questions drop me a note. In my experience the thing that sped up our efficiency the most was the track loader and the rotational log grapple with winch. I started out with a small skid steer with over the tire tracks and a root grapple and worked my way up. It's a tuff business, that requires a lot of overhead (in order to have the right equipmet) with relatively small margins. Good luck!
www.firelinefps.com

 

[defensiblespace]

Fireline, I have spent hours drooling over the equipment you have on the internet. The track loader is something I have wanted for a long time. I have considered the mini track loader (stand on) as well. Unfortunately, I could not purchase any of that equipment without taking on some serious debt. I have tried to only aquire things that I can pay off in a season. I am really only BUSY for 3 months out of the year, but my whole season is from late May to early Nov. That means I'm making payments on equipment for at least 6 months out of the year while it sits there. It's bad enough I have to pay 12 months of liability insurance for 6 months of work. The other problem here is the competition. When I started out in 2004 I had 10-15 competitors. Now I have well over 100 competitors (for defensible space). Even general contractors who don't have any houses to build are driving around with chainsaws trying to get work. The competition from the unlicensed companies is relentless. Many people are hiring them because they can not afford to pay for a contractor's services, even though they are doing some pretty suspect work. It wasn't like that a few years ago. I would name my price and people would ask when I could start. Now I'm battling for every contract I get. The pics on your website were great. I can tell you do top quality work. We are doing pretty much the same thing here in N. Tahoe. I would love to be able to afford a track loader with some grapples one day. For now I am studying for my arborist certification in the hopes that I can separate myself from the competition through education. I know I kind of got off the subject here, but I'm sure there are probably a lot of other tree svc guys out there with the same problems. If anyone else has figured out how to pull off purchasing big equipment for a seasonal business, I would love to hear some suggestions. And no, I don't want to do snow removal. There are a million of those companies around here as well.

 

[ddhlakebound]

Here's a couple ideas that may help your efficiency, or they may not really be possible if the distances are too great....

Is it possible to set up a zipline down the hill? If it was, your only problem would be getting each load secured up in the air, then turn 'em loose down the zip. A block above the zipline and your quad could hoist them into position, then just clip 'em on and turn 'em loose.

If there's no way around dragging them down, you could move twice as much material in about the same time if you had a block at the bottom of the run, so that as you're going back up, you pull another load down to the landing. Could take alot of rope tho, and the quad could have trouble pulling itself up the hill at the same time as dragging another load down. Also, could be dangerous as the grade gets steeper, or if the downside load caught on something......might be trouble for the driver. The zipline would be highly preferred to me, if you could make it happen.

 

[treemandan]

I think you have it made. What could be more effecient? You drag it out and "put a chipping tag on and its good to go"? Sounds like you are in a position where you don't even need a chipper nor have to bear the cost of owning one and I wouldn't if I didn't have too. I also am having a hard time understanding what brush you chip and what brush you drag to the street for a tag.
What it is that you are doing sounds like I could just come in there for a few minutes and be done though. I use the mini loader to drag brush but mostly I drive right in with the chipper ( Bandit 90), turn it around and fire it up... then I can just drive back out of course. You could easily pull a 6 inch disc chipper with a 4 wheeler I would think as well though maybe a little hairy if the terrian is wet and slopey.
It might even sound like you could use a walk behind brush hog mower.

 

[BlackenedTimber]

I think DDHLakeBound has a great idea going here, as long as you have the grade to make it work for you.

You may want to get a good length of rope (300+ ft, or whatever works for you) and anchor on the downside, by the road where you need your brush/slash to end up. Once the anchor is set on the downside, climb a tall tree uphill where your cutting, set a block with a sling, and run the rope down from the block to the base of your uphill anchor point. leave the rope slack at first. then start using your 4-wheeler to stage the brush under the path of the rope at the top of the hill. while the rope is slack, use a micropulley, short sling and biner to attatch the brush pile to the running rope. Once the load is attached, use a fiddle block or similar to tension the rope, picking the brush up off the ground, eliminating the friction, and allowing gravity to take over and move the load down the rope to what is effectively your landing at the bottom of the hill, by the road.

In essence, you would be making a skyline, except rather than having it taught all the time, draw and release tension as necessary to pick and move the loads.

I dont know what type of terrain you are working on, but maybe that will work for you. At the very least, it would be cool.

T

 

[thansen]

Fireline, I have spent hours drooling over the equipment you have on the internet. The track loader is something I have wanted for a long time. I have considered the mini track loader (stand on) as well. Unfortunately, I could not purchase any of that equipment without taking on some serious debt. I have tried to only aquire things that I can pay off in a season. I am really only BUSY for 3 months out of the year, but my whole season is from late May to early Nov. That means I'm making payments on equipment for at least 6 months out of the year while it sits there. It's bad enough I have to pay 12 months of liability insurance for 6 months of work. The other problem here is the competition. When I started out in 2004 I had 10-15 competitors. Now I have well over 100 competitors (for defensible space). Even general contractors who don't have any houses to build are driving around with chainsaws trying to get work. The competition from the unlicensed companies is relentless. Many people are hiring them because they can not afford to pay for a contractor's services, even though they are doing some pretty suspect work. It wasn't like that a few years ago. I would name my price and people would ask when I could start. Now I'm battling for every contract I get. The pics on your website were great. I can tell you do top quality work. We are doing pretty much the same thing here in N. Tahoe. I would love to be able to afford a track loader with some grapples one day. For now I am studying for my arborist certification in the hopes that I can separate myself from the competition through education. I know I kind of got off the subject here, but I'm sure there are probably a lot of other tree svc guys out there with the same problems. If anyone else has figured out how to pull off purchasing big equipment for a seasonal business, I would love to hear some suggestions. And no, I don't want to do snow removal. There are a million of those companies around here as well.

I understand completely, it seems like everyone who has a pickup truck and chainsaw is trying to be a fuel reduction contractor. I am definately limited on working days in our area as well, so the equipment is essential to getting lots of stuff done in a short amout of time. The off season definatley hurts the bank account though and we have to go find other types of work, or work for someone else doing something completely different during those times. It's getting harder and harder to keep a small business running, thats for sure! And don't let the fancy equipment that I have fool ya, it seems we always revert back to "the tarp", "the rake", and a wheel barrow and of course our aching backs at some point during the course of a job. There is no substitute for strong backs and good old fashioned hand work sometimes. :greenchainsaw:

 

[ForTheArborist]

Hi, new to the forum here. I live in the Sierras and have been specializing in defensible space for about 4 years. Most of what we do is brush cutting and removing some trees as well, although I am not a climber. After I go through and cut the trees, I have a crew that picks up the slash and put it into small piles. They lasso the piles and pick them up and carry them to the road for stacking. I recently purchased a quad that I try to use for much of the hauling, but it is not perfect. Some slash we can stack on the racks of the quad and the rest we drag with a lasso. Any ideas to make the quad work more to our advantage would be helpful. I have looked at trailers for the quad, but have yet to find something that would work well for brush. The other idea that I have is using the quad to pull a chipper and chipping onto the ground when permissible. Our quad is a Kawasaki Brute Force 650 4x4 with a 1,250 lb towing capacity. I know that kind of limits me as far as chippers go, but any ideas on smaller chippers that kick ass would be helpful as I have never owned a chipper before. Ultimately, I would like to have a track loader with some grapples on it, but it is hard to justify spending that kind of money when you are only cranking for 4 months out of the year. Any ideas that anybody can throw at me would be helpful as I'm sure a lot of you here have even more experience than I do. Thanks for reading.

Just off the top of my head I would sketch out some diagrams with some dimensions on them depicting what you believe is ideal to pull behind your quad. Then either buy a cutting torch, arc welder, and a grinder used on craigslist or something just to sell when you are done with them, or take the diagrams to a welder, and discuss what you want as a finished result. He can consult with you what is possible in the area of structure and utility. He'll already have the metal on hand, and I doubt it would take a welder more than two days on the project before he fabs up something that you can take and hook up to your quad out there.

This is a common scenerio for weld shops.

 

[lego1970]

The little folding Harbor Freight tailers aren't too bad. You have to locktite every bolt and tack weld some of them so it doesn't rattle apart, but my brother has one he uses to get stuff from Home Depot since his family only has a MiniVan and a little Saturn car. The neighborhood where he lives won't allow trailers in the driveways so he had to get the fold up one. It's done him good for a couple years now and his son is starting to use it to mow lawns with. With off road hauling brush I doubt it will last very long without having to do some welding now and then but ss mentioned they are pretty light and only a few hundred dollars so even if you had to replace it every year it wouldn't be too bad, moneywise.

Have you thought about getting a winch either for your truck or qaud? Somewhere I've seen continous winches so you can put any length cable in there and it's not limited by the size of the spool. Don't know the capacity, speed or how it works but I've seen them somewhere. Also maybe even just a pulley on the truck and use the qaud to run the line. I imagine dragging the brush down hill is not such a problem with the qaud buy maybe going up hill is? If that's the case as I said maybe a pulley at the truck, and run the quad downhill as the brush goes up. Just a thought. Good luck.

Update. I can't find that continous winch thing I thought I saw awhile back and or maybe I was looking at something else.

 

[defensiblespace]

Treemandan,
After reading a lot of the posts, I have to agree with you. I do have it made. It is always worth checking in with other people to see if they are doing something radically different that will help. To the guy who suggested seeing a welder, I did something like that. I did it real cheap though. I grabbed some 2x6 planks last time at the dump. I made several "x" shaped devices with a bolt and locking nut in the middle as an axle of sorts. At the bottom of the "x" is an open lag hook on one side and a rope with a loop attached to the other side. By attaching the rope to the lag hook, it holds the "x" and keeps it from opening any further. We then pile up the small trees and brush on the top of the x and tie it off with a lasso fastened with a slip knot. We then back up the quad to the x so that the butts of the branches are on top of the rear rack. The back of the quad has a sling with a carabiner attached to the rack. We clip the lasso with the carabiner and drop the x by undoing the rope at the bottom. The x collapses and we drive off. When we get to the pile, we pull the slip knot and drive off. How is that for efficient. We have learned a lot since I first started this thread.

 

[ForTheArborist]

Treemandan,
After reading a lot of the posts, I have to agree with you. I do have it made. It is always worth checking in with other people to see if they are doing something radically different that will help. To the guy who suggested seeing a welder, I did something like that. I did it real cheap though. I grabbed some 2x6 planks last time at the dump. I made several "x" shaped devices with a bolt and locking nut in the middle as an axle of sorts. At the bottom of the "x" is an open lag hook on one side and a rope with a loop attached to the other side. By attaching the rope to the lag hook, it holds the "x" and keeps it from opening any further. We then pile up the small trees and brush on the top of the x and tie it off with a lasso fastened with a slip knot. We then back up the quad to the x so that the butts of the branches are on top of the rear rack. The back of the quad has a sling with a carabiner attached to the rack. We clip the lasso with the carabiner and drop the x by undoing the rope at the bottom. The x collapses and we drive off. When we get to the pile, we pull the slip knot and drive off. How is that for efficient. We have learned a lot since I first started this thread.

Good job.

I wasn't able to envision all of the factors such as your new "X System." If you could show off some pix unloaded and loaded, you'd probably get some rep points for your name here at AS. It reads like a good yet cheap improvisation. I'm interested seeing it.

 

[estrees]

Hacks with chainsaws

Hey guys. Just joined the site. I do fuels reduction work, similar to THansen but with a different set of equipment, and in a different area of MT. I read the comment about how every out of work carpenter/concrete guy is now picking up a chainsaw and passing themselves off as a real forestry contractor. It struck a nerve. It makes me sick to see some of the stumps left behind by a faller who has no business holding a saw. And many of these landowners are so cheap these days that they are accepting bids from these hacks, just because the price is right. Well, you get what you pay for. A lot of these guys, if they have insurance at all, only have insurance for construction or whatever else they used to do, which isn't adequate for forestry. And for some reason they think that just because they cut a cord of firewood last year that all of the sudden they know the game. I've been running my own business for 5 years and still consider myself "green." It seems that these hacks and jokers moved in when the Pine Beetle problem really started hitting, and hopefully they will all die out as fast as the pine trees they are trying to cut down for half of what it should cost. Sorry if I sound bitter. I'm all for fair competition, but competing with these hacks is just a losing battle. I'm working harder than ever for less money these days, just to get work that 2 years ago would have been worth twice as much. But at least I've got work. Just needed to vent, I feel better now.

 

[thansen]

Hey guys. Just joined the site. I do fuels reduction work, similar to THansen but with a different set of equipment, and in a different area of MT. I read the comment about how every out of work carpenter/concrete guy is now picking up a chainsaw and passing themselves off as a real forestry contractor. It struck a nerve. It makes me sick to see some of the stumps left behind by a faller who has no business holding a saw. And many of these landowners are so cheap these days that they are accepting bids from these hacks, just because the price is right. Well, you get what you pay for. A lot of these guys, if they have insurance at all, only have insurance for construction or whatever else they used to do, which isn't adequate for forestry. And for some reason they think that just because they cut a cord of firewood last year that all of the sudden they know the game. I've been running my own business for 5 years and still consider myself "green." It seems that these hacks and jokers moved in when the Pine Beetle problem really started hitting, and hopefully they will all die out as fast as the pine trees they are trying to cut down for half of what it should cost. Sorry if I sound bitter. I'm all for fair competition, but competing with these hacks is just a losing battle. I'm working harder than ever for less money these days, just to get work that 2 years ago would have been worth twice as much. But at least I've got work. Just needed to vent, I feel better now.

I feel your pain! Welcome to the site. It's a uphill battle and I'm getting tired.

 

[Mikecutstrees]

Do not take a vermeer BC600 into the woods. Its a bad idea. They are top heavy and not well suited for going over rocks and stumps. I think a tractor with a PTO mounted chipper would be the best solution.... Best of luck.... Mike