any ideas for this case, folks?

[Rob Murphy]

Second Opinion!!

"My first sight of the tree I recommended removal, however the customer wanted another opinion. "

My second opinion would be the same as my first !!
It looks definatly defective to me .
Full points for trying though.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Re: Second Opinion!!

Originally posted by Rob Murphy
[BIt looks definatly defective to me .
[/B]

Every tree has defects, so do they all need to be removed? True that tree has issues, but without evaluating all defects AND STRENGTHS removal or retention would be hasty judgments.

If the top has an 8" hollow that's a serious defect. If it has 4" of solid wood all around and new bark lapping over into the cavity that's a serious strength. You can't make the call to end the game without adding up the score.

That is unless you're just there to sell removals.

 

[Rob Murphy]

Re: Re: Second Opinion!!

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
True that tree has issues.

That is unless you're just there to sell removals.

:

I'll say it has ..I had to look again at the picture, just to be sure.
Are we looking at the same Pic ?
Not withstanding Kens approach I dont think this structural fault could survive over time.
Yes trees are supprisingly strong( its still holding at the moment).
And yes I have removed trees for LESS.
Call it a gut feeling but if I wont climb above a fault ...I cant recommend it be retained.
Of course it could be retained if you exclude anyone from coming within its reach.


Yes dont we just all love removals Suck in the sawdust ,Hang off that Chainsaw,Cut and Chuck, Chip and Grind.... give me a nice prune job anyday!!

 

[Climbing mike]

First and second opinion

My first opinion is the tree should be removed. Ivf he wanted a second I would say the stump should be removed to. If he is really set on keeping the tree crown thining and reduction would help. Since there is nothing to cable the tree top to, I could see the possibility of taking a cable and cable the top above the hole to the trunk below the hole so when (not if) the top split of the cable should hold the top off the ground to minimize the chance of injury to any thing on the ground. Just a thought..


Mike

 

[BIGOAKBOY]

HEY,
FROM A FATHER OF 4 SOON TO BE 5, CUT THAT ???? THING DOWN BEFORE IT KILLS ONE OF THOSE KIDS. THE QUESTION HERE IS WOULD ANY OF YOU LET YOUR KIDS USE THAT TREE FOR A JUNGLE GYM???? KIDS LIKE TO REBEL. EXAMPLE "KIDS STAY AWAY FROM THAT TREE" AS SOON AS YOU WERE NOT LOOKING THEY WOULD BE SWINGING FROM THAT TREE LIKE TARZAN!
I LIKE THE MULCH IDEA. ASK THE OWNER IF HE WOULD HANG A (PLUGED IN) BLOW DRYER FROM THE SHOWER HEAD WHILE HIS KIDS WERE TAKING A BATH!
TELL HIM COPS PROTECT YOUR KIDS FROM KIDNAPPERS, FIREFIGHTERS GET PAID TO SAVE YOUR FAMILY DURING HOUSE FIRES, GIVE THE PROFESSIONAL ARBORIST A CHANCE AT THAT TREE AND YOU WILL CONTROL HOW IT COMES DOWN AND NONE OF HIS FAMILY WILL BE HURT.
I KNOW I'M JUST A GOOD OLE SOUTHERN BOY, BUT WOULDN'T A GOOD ICE AND SNOW PUT A GREAT DEAL OF STRAIN ON THAT OLD OAK. BY THE WAY I THINK IT'S A BEAUTIFUL OLD OAK, BUT IT HAS SEEN ITS DAY.

 

[NeTree]

Caps are considered SHOUTING.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Yup, it all boils down to Risk+Target=Hazard.

But still we can only recomend actioons for the client to take. If you feel strong enough about it, you can tell him that from your own risk tolerance/liability stand point, the only option you can offer would be removal.

Guy, Dave or me may have another POV on the issue after doing some more looking around. Then again we night agree.

All of us are doing armchair analysis here.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Cut the dang thing down, plant a new tree, and suck it up.

Deja vu?

 

[murphy4trees]

Hire a consulting arborist.... he's a trained preofessional at making such evaluations.... Then do what he says....
That is CYA with a CA.
I also agree that many here may be rushing to a judgment without knowing the necessary facts and calculations needed...
That said over the years I've become more inclined to recommend removal on questionable trees.... Just cut too many failures of roofs, cars, swingsets and other trees and shrubs....
There have also been a number of "I told ya sos.... but you didn't listen". And I never have recommended removal just to keep the work coming...
Today I had a sweethearted customer beg me to cut down two maples in her backyard.... I pruned and cabled both of them in the past two years.... I told her to pick one... 'cause I wasn't going to cut 'em both.

 

[geofore]

cut maple

Murph, did you ask her to plant a new one for the one you are going to remove? I hate to see trees go but I ask the customer to plant new ones if the trees have to go.

 

[NeTree]

Most of my business IS removals; not by choice, but by demographics.

If a tree has some salvageable merit, I'm more than happy to recommend it be saved. From a business aspect, it's more revenue in the long run for me. I can make alot more from nursing a "sick" tree back to health and keeping it that way than by removing it. From a personal standpoint, I always hate to see a good tree go.

However...

To say others have hastened to a judgement is to belie the combined years of experience of the members here. When I say it should be removed, I make that judgement based not only on the "books" and years of professional training, but also the 20 plus years experience I have in the business. Trees that technically "shouldn't" be a problem, invariably end up being one.

Ultimately, even if the tree could be made 100% sound and healthy (which it can't), it would still be an eyesore and a lousy specimen to maintain on the lanscape...and after all, isn't that the point to paying all that money to maintain your trees? To have a nice "Better Homes and Gardens" landscape?

 

[murphy4trees]

Well actually I did recommend and may actually end up installing a replacement tree.... Maybe a weeping cherry or a magnolia... something that fits the space a little better than the evergrowing Norway Maple....
Also I recently did some work for a woman who is a garden designer and builder specializing in perrenials... Invited her over to the above job to design some big beds along the rear fenceline... I may work with her on the installation..

 

[NeTree]

Glad to hear she may re-plant. A bare green lawn is an ugly thing!

 

[murphy4trees]

Hi Erik,
I didn't mean to ignore your previous post. I didn't see it 'til after my last post. What I said earlier is that "many here !MAY! have rushed to judgment". I was not referring to you or anyone else specifically and really only briefly read most of the earlier posts as I had just come back from a 2 week vacation. It just seemed to me that the crowd was yelling "crucify it" based on a couple of pictures viewed on computer screens... That's not a lot of info.... there are lots of factors to consider in making such judgments. And pictures can be very misleading.
I too have over 20 years expereince and have done my fair share of storm damage along the way. I spent 3 months cleaning up Charolette NC after Hugo in '89. And beyond the science and experience, I trust my intuitive sense of trees. I often find myself begging customers to take down potentially dangerous trees and have gone so far as to put in writing my opinion that a tree is "relatively safe" in order to save it.
And still there are many trees that are tough calls. These calls can potentially save lives or cause death and destruction. I've got some fairly big oaks in my back yard that have structural defects... I was just yesterday considerring hiring a CA or calling Bartlett in to look at them. So when the judgment is unclear and the threat is very real, I recommend a local CA. Spend the money and let him do what he does best. Then I'll do what I do best.

 

[NeTree]

No sweat, Murph... and no offense taken.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
the crowd was yelling "crucify it" based on a couple of pictures viewed on computer screens... That's not a lot of info.... there are lots of factors to consider in making such judgments. And pictures can be very misleading.
** That's for sure.
I've got some fairly big oaks in my back yard that have structural defects... I was just yesterday considerring hiring a CA
** First thought is to collect risk assessment info and go as far as you can in rating those defects.
Next thought is to go to www.tree-tech.com; Russ is in your area and is very good. His Knothole forum had a topic for Construction/Hazard; don't know how accessible those archives are any more but there were some very detailed discussions on there that may be relevant to your trees' condition. If he lets you in on the assessment process you will pick up enough to make paying for his time a very good investment.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Russ has some good papers on his site expalining comon problems-http://www.tree-tech.com/reports/index.xhtml

 

[oldugly]

Thank you folks for all the great replys. I think I have enough now to go to the customer with. I really appreciate the input. My gut feeling with this one is to remove, and very quickly. Those swings look like small fry death traps to me, and I worry about them every day since I have first looked at that tree. A father of five, and grandfather of three, kids to me are alot more important than any faulty tree.
There are alot more faults/defects than the picture shows. I could go back and take more, but in honesty I have given my opinion quite clearly, and from here the ball will be in the customer's court.
I had promised I would seek any new information, or technology I was not currently aware of to try to strengthen the tree, but I don't see any. Quite frankly removing the top about two inches from the ground seems to be the best solution, possibly taking it a little lower would be acceptable also.
Thanks again for all the input. You guys made my day.

 

[Rob Murphy]

Tree save plus

Some one else suggested this , I just saw it in the Sherrills catt. page 49 . Sell a install while the onwer decides ...at least then you could sleep a bit better.