anyone know what knots to use on amsteel blue?

[lone wolf]

Sorry, been away from the thread a while. To return to an earlier theme:

I think the tenex is more likely to fail than an equal strength double braid in a shock loading because the tenex has less elasticity. Given a knot or other sharp bend, the outer fibers will even shear sooner on a slow pull, given the reduced ability to stretch.

There is an interesting video on YouTube that shows an elastic rope holding a shock load (repeatedly) and an Amsteel rope failing the same test on the first run, despite being a much stronger rope.

Lone wolf: that amsteel is perfect for the winch line, but put some splices on it. You are very unlikely to ever shock load that winch very much, anyway.

good to know about the amsteel so you like double braid better what is the best sling to get?link for the rope test would be awesome.

 

[pdqdl]

Actually, I don't hardly ever use a sling. My lowering block is handled by a 3/4" tenex spliced eye rope (I don't use a loopie or whoopie sling), and I rig my port-a-wrap using similar ropes. I'm afraid I am mostly old school, but I am working on getting up to speed.

I wasn't really stating that I like double braid better than tenex, although now that you put it that way, I probably do. I hadn't thought about it before you mentioned it. Until I have to splice it, I like stable braid for almost everything (in general) than almost anything else.

Something to consider: you can't make loopie or whoopie slings with double braid rope, hence their popularity in Tenex. You CAN take a nice 3/4 double braid with an eye splice and rig any equipment to the tree that you can with a sling. It's not as simple or fast, but it's just as secure.

One exception: Amsteel is fabulous strong and really great for slow loads and light handling. I suppose some folks don't know that it is so light that it floats. Naturally, that makes it the best material in the world for towing any boat, big or small.



I would like to say that I do lots of tree work, but I have had such a paucity of tree work that I can't justify owning a chipper right now, much less all that other tree stuff I own. We finally got $1300 worth of tree trimming to do next week. I am so out of practice I'll probably fall out of a tree.

 

[pdqdl]

Amsteel research

Here is a comparison article to amsteel vs wire rope in logging applications: http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/synthropeusewinch.pdf


Perhaps I was remembering this test, that uses different rope than Amsteel:

Here is a good test from Yale Cordage that shows the difference that using a dynamic line can make. Unfortunately, they spoil the test (in my humble opinion) by TYING A KNOT in the tested ropes. The video clearly shows yale's rope breaking where the knot squeezes it off. By the way: Ultrex is Yale's version of Amsteel Blue. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they used a spliced eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDIo-WZkSaM

By the way, the tail end of this video shows a really good view of a tree climber getting hammered by a rope breaking under a load yanked short. The guy gets face butted by the branch he was on, then tumbles back to the trunk upside down from his lifeline, bouncing all the way.

 

[moray]

...Unfortunately, they spoil the test (in my humble opinion) by TYING A KNOT in the tested ropes...

They also spoil the whole thing by sloppily confusing, over and over, lbs (force) and ft-lbs (energy). The video clearly wasn't put together by one of their engineers.

The engineers do it right on the Yale website where, if you look at the specifications page for one of their ropes, you are likely to see a beautiful color chart. The link shows Yalex, their equivalent of Samson's Tenex, and the chart shows how the rope absorbs energy.

This whole business of dynamic load will continue to be mumbo-jumbo to many people until they get a grip on these energy absorption charts. The chart for Vectrus, one of their Vectran ropes, looks radically different. These two charts completely explain why the stronger rope in the video failed while the weaker rope survived.

 

[lone wolf]

in the rope video the climber that got knocked about would have been f***ed if he hit his head or the rope broke .

 

[lone wolf]

so before i get some new slings what say you guys on doublebraid v tenex?what do you think is the most handy size to get that is strong but not bulky?

 

[tree md]

Here is a comparison article to amsteel vs wire rope in logging applications: http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/synthropeusewinch.pdf


Perhaps I was remembering this test, that uses different rope than Amsteel:

Here is a good test from Yale Cordage that shows the difference that using a dynamic line can make. Unfortunately, they spoil the test (in my humble opinion) by TYING A KNOT in the tested ropes. The video clearly shows yale's rope breaking where the knot squeezes it off. By the way: Ultrex is Yale's version of Amsteel Blue. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they used a spliced eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDIo-WZkSaM

By the way, the tail end of this video shows a really good view of a tree climber getting hammered by a rope breaking under a load yanked short. The guy gets face butted by the branch he was on, then tumbles back to the trunk upside down from his lifeline, bouncing all the way.

And that my friends is why I always wear my brain bucket on removals now.

Jeez, this guy didn't even have a lanyard on. They should use that footage for training videos on what not to do.

I'd like to know what he was using for bull rope. A bull rope should not fail under those conditions, even being shock loaded.

 

[ropensaddle]

And that my friends is why I always wear my brain bucket on removals now.

Jeez, this guy didn't even have a lanyard on. They should use that footage for training videos on what not to do.

I'd like to know what he was using for bull rope. A bull rope should not fail under those conditions, even being shock loaded.

I took a good ride on a gum that had to be stopped no room for letting it run. I learned from that day forward take it smaller if necessary my feet went completely above my head I some how managed to hold the spar away from my face but when my lanyard pulled me back to the spar I wished I were wearing a cup. I hurt for several days over that.

 

[tree md]

I took a good ride on a gum that had to be stopped no room for letting it run. I learned from that day forward take it smaller if necessary my feet went completely above my head I some how managed to hold the spar away from my face but when my lanyard pulled me back to the spar I wished I were wearing a cup. I hurt for several days over that.

I have taken a couple really hard rides. One was on a pine that I roped a huge top out of. Normally I would only take about 1/3 out in a healthy pine. I took more than that, a little less than half. Stupid I know but I was young. It was before I used a block. I was lowering from a couple of stubs of limbs I had cut. I too was able to protect my face but my body took a beating. I also took a serious ride in a Cottonwood top that my help didn't let run like I told them too. Rag dolled me too but again just a few bruises.

I agree, if there is any question take it smaller.

 

[ropensaddle]

I have taken a couple really hard rides. One was on a pine that I roped a huge top out of. Normally I would only take about 1/3 out in a healthy pine. I took more than that, a little less than half. Stupid I know but I was young. It was before I used a block. I was lowering from a couple of stubs of limbs I had cut. I too was able to protect my face but my body took a beating. I also took a serious ride in a Cottonwood top that my help didn't let run like I told them too. Rag dolled me too but again just a few bruises.

I agree, if there is any question take it smaller.

In my defense lol, that gum had a hollow decayed area and I was skeerd to go higher lol I have had some rides too. It is why I don't like to rig big stuff to the spar and would rather wafer and throw, I don't feel my old bones are as tough as they used to be lol.

 

[tree md]

I'd rather use a crane!

Had a Silver maple that I had to get high enough in to make a cut and clear the phase 3 line. I felt confident I could do this tree without a crane so I gave the guy a pretty good price on the tree. Well, as I was going up, the leader I was on had rotten spots in it that I could pull out with my hand. There was still plenty of solid wood though and I felt pretty comfortable. The tree was around 75-80'. I needed to get up to 65-70 feet to be able to drop the top of the leader and clear the power line. At 50-60' I came to a large knot hole that I could stick my whole hand into. I needed to get 8-10' above that to make my cut. The wood was prolly 8" where I found the knot hole. I had no idea of how far up the hollow went. I came down grabbing a chunk of rotten wood on my way down, took it to the HO and told him I was going to need a crane to do the job. If I could have tied into a leader that wouldn't have swung me towards the lines I might have still risked it but there was no safe TIP. Luckily the HO understood and told me to go ahead and price two other hazard trees that we were planning to do in the future while I had the crane on the job.

 

[lone wolf]

I'd rather use a crane!

Had a Silver maple that I had to get high enough in to make a cut and clear the phase 3 line. I felt confident I could do this tree without a crane so I gave the guy a pretty good price on the tree. Well, as I was going up, the leader I was on had rotten spots in it that I could pull out with my hand. There was still plenty of solid wood though and I felt pretty comfortable. The tree was around 75-80'. I needed to get up to 65-70 feet to be able to drop the top of the leader and clear the power line. At 50-60' I came to a large knot hole that I could stick my whole hand into. I needed to get 8-10' above that to make my cut. The wood was prolly 8" where I found the knot hole. I had no idea of how far up the hollow went. I came down grabbing a chunk of rotten wood on my way down, took it to the HO and told him I was going to need a crane to do the job. If I could have tied into a leader that wouldn't have swung me towards the lines I might have still risked it but there was no safe TIP. Luckily the HO understood and told me to go ahead and price two other hazard trees that we were planning to do in the future while I had the crane on the job.

a rare smart homeowner you are lucky.

 

[tree md]

a rare smart homeowner you are lucky.

Oh he had done his homework. Everyone else had told him all three trees would have to come out with a crane. I was the only fool willing to attempt the one tree without a crane to try and save him some money. We came in at 10.5 on that job. I earned his trust and his business.

 

[lone wolf]

Oh he had done his homework. Everyone else had told him all three trees would have to come out with a crane. I was the only fool willing to attempt the one tree without a crane to try and save him some money. We came in at 10.5 on that job. I earned his trust and his business.

I have found that if you listen to the homeowner things go wrong do it your way or tell them to get lost I seen what wires can do to a person .now back to ropes anyone know of a double braided rope that keeps its color the only rope I have seen keep color is new england hi vee and sampson blue climbing line all my d.b. ropes lose color turn grey and are hard to tell apart when using 2 or 3 at one time?

 

[tree md]

I have found that if you listen to the homeowner things go wrong do it your way or tell them to get lost I seen what wires can do to a person .now back to ropes anyone know of a double braided rope that keeps its color the only rope I have seen keep color is new england hi vee and sampson blue climbing line all my d.b. ropes lose color turn grey and are hard to tell apart when using 2 or 3 at one time?

I use Samson stable braid, 3/4. Mine only starts to loose it's color on the ends where I tie knots and use it for rigging. Usually by the time the color starts fading too bad I trim it to make sure I am not using a weakened part of the rope. I work both ends and trim off the working section after it has been in service long enough to serve it's purpose.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I let an HO talk me into dumping chip down a hill in her back yard. The slope was not a huge problem for the old IH 4800 we had, but not on turf. She said that they take delivery of sand for the private beach every spring and the dump trucks have no problems. What she did not know is that the driveway was on the opposite side of the yard then where she told me to go

Oh, and she was the neighbor, not the client....And i was running ChemLawn's pruning in the region... we had to get a special wrecker with an extra long cable, drive that to the edge of the slope... Then there were all the ruts from dragging the truck up hill...:bang:

 

[ropensaddle]

I let an HO talk me into dumping chip down a hill in her back yard. The slope was not a huge problem for the old IH 4800 we had, but not on turf. She said that they take delivery of sand for the private beach every spring and the dump trucks have no problems. What she did not know is that the driveway was on the opposite side of the yard then where she told me to go

Oh, and she was the neighbor, not the client....And i was running ChemLawn's pruning in the region... we had to get a special wrecker with an extra long cable, drive that to the edge of the slope... Then there were all the ruts from dragging the truck up hill...:bang:

That stinks I have a probe that I plunge into the ground if it goes into the ground with ease I stay out. I will come back with plywood if it is cost efective but climb if it is just a little pruning job.

 

[pdqdl]

so before i get some new slings what say you guys on doublebraid v tenex?what do you think is the most handy size to get that is strong but not bulky?

You still haven't told us how you plan on using the slings.

Holding a block for catching a load: Big tenex is fine, or maybe smaller double-braid rope, double tied if you prefer. The real load is taken by the bull rope. If you have a stretchy bull rope and it is running up to the block and then back down to a friction device, you may have 40-80 feet of rope that can elongate. At that point, the elongation built into the sling becomes unimportant, because the shock load is being absorbed more by the bull rope.

Run a steel cable for a bull rope (or amsteel), and you will get more shock loading on the sling.

Eye Slings for rigging to a crane lift: I would feel perfectly comfortable with 3/8" amsteel. At almost 20k breaking strength, you certainly have a huge working load with a doubled up sling. That 3/8 amsteel is pretty light on a climbers belt, and nobody with any sense will be shock loading the crane.

Light slings for attaching to speedlines: almost anything with sufficient strength will do, because the speedline will be absorbing most of the shock. They have a built in "let it run" ability not found in most rigging.

I would say that any rigging sling for heavy drops on a block should be twice as strong as the bull rope. That, or doubled up to produce the same effect.

 

[lone wolf]

You still haven't told us how you plan on using the slings.

Holding a block for catching a load: Big tenex is fine, or maybe smaller double-braid rope, double tied if you prefer. The real load is taken by the bull rope. If you have a stretchy bull rope and it is running up to the block and then back down to a friction device, you may have 40-80 feet of rope that can elongate. At that point, the elongation built into the sling becomes unimportant, because the shock load is being absorbed more by the bull rope.

Run a steel cable for a bull rope (or amsteel), and you will get more shock loading on the sling.

Eye Slings for rigging to a crane lift: I would feel perfectly comfortable with 3/8" amsteel. At almost 20k breaking strength, you certainly have a huge working load with a doubled up sling. That 3/8 amsteel is pretty light on a climbers belt, and nobody with any sense will be shock loading the crane.

Light slings for attaching to speedlines: almost anything with sufficient strength will do, because the speedline will be absorbing most of the shock. They have a built in "let it run" ability not found in most rigging.

I would say that any rigging sling for heavy drops on a block should be twice as strong as the bull rope. That, or doubled up to produce the same effect.

for false crotch rigging what is better tenex or double braid and what is better on the ground for redirecting with a block tyed to a tree and pulling say with a truck?

 

[tree MDS]

I have been using 3/4 Tenex loopie sling for about 4 years now. I think it's a 12' sling, can't remember. In all honesty, it has worked pretty well for me. I have blocked wood up to 28-30 inches with it. As big as I can safety get it around. Never had a problem with it failing or the knot coming out as long as I was using it like I was supposed to, blocking wood with the block hanging straight up and down on the tree. Pulling the knot out with the truck did give me pause though. I have been using a double braid sling that I have because it seems to hold knots better and absorbs shock better as well.

I have to block some serious wood here in the next few days (36" pieces of Oak). I was going to use the Tenex sling as I feel that it would handle wood that size as long as it's set properly but the sling is too short to go around the tree and tie a safe hitch. I was just going to use my 3/4 bull line but went ahead and ordered an 18' double braid eye sling to do the job since the weather bought me some time on it. Tenex works OK but I like the way Double braid stretches a little to absorb shock plus it holds arborist knots great.

I've been using 18' DB slings for some years now. I also have a 20' tenex for attaching the large steel porty, and I bought a 25' tenex for really freakishly big trunks (I have only used it once or twice, its a bit much, but nice to have).

The next slings I buy will be 18' tenex. Its stronger, and I like working with it much better.