anyone not been hurt?

[rebelman]

I've been pruning a thousand or so trees a year to standard since 89. That's a half decade before ANSI tree pruning standard. I didn't even know about ANSI until a couple of years ago. I was simply shown the way by a certified arborist, and bought into it fully. I've never met another spikeless pruner(hundreds of spikers). I've never discussed codit or proper pruning with anyone, because noone qualifies, they all use spikes if it's a little tough, or all the time. For a full decade(the nineties) I argued with people tired of getting ripped off by our industry. They don't care about Alex Shigo. I'm not being politically correct, you are, old ugly. I'm the one bucking the trend in the real world.

 

[pigwot]

rebelman,
I am and always have been a spikeless pruner and I respect your integrity. My standard question is "would you go to a midget barber who had to spike up your leg to cut your hair?" I left the industry in 1991, but still climb ocassionaly (friends, neighbors, relatives, and for the landscaper who bought my heavy equipment). Heard Shigo on one of his first lecture tours at Longwood Gardens in PA. Looked at a Liquidamber styraciflua today where you could see the path taken by the last spike-pruner, and each entry point was oozing and had fungal fruiting bodies evident after just one year...

 

[clearance]

I try to climb spikeless on any tree I trim, but if I cannot do it efficiently, the spikes go on. Now for a little reality beyond the pc bs. Show me one tree, just one, that has died due to spike marks...and I will buy into it full heartedly.

After 15 years in my own business, and 12 working for others I have come accross alot of previous trims. Note...I did NOT say a tree that has died due to poor trimming. There are many of them out there, and truly these propetuators of topping, and stubbing, and "dress" cutting are hacks. But now that you threw down the glove...show me one, just one that has died from spiking.

That is what I mean by political correctness vs. reality. You have been taught the EVILS of spikes, but without verification of its proof. I will NEVER say spiking a tree is good for it, do not misinterpret this, I do avoid it whenever I can still do the tree efficiently and give my customers a reasonable price....but yes I still use spikes on some trims. Show me the proof, then start calling me a hack youngster.

It is egos like yours that make the word ARBORIST a four letter word in a lot of good people's vocabulary.

As far as ANSI goes or the ISA...I think they are great organizations trying to better the quality of our profession, and although I belong to neither, I give them the ultimate respect. I also respect the new methods of climbing, and by all means I would never discourage others from learning them. There are many great innovations that have bettered our life, and the health of the trees, so I am not against change, nor am I above learning something new...I do everyday.

Its brainwashed repettition of utlitarian superlatives, and ultimatums that raise my dander some. Its then I step back and ask why? Show me the proof.

Rebelman...I fear you do not live up to your name, rather you are part of the brainwahed masses, unable to rebel, because you are unable to open your mind to the possibility that not all you were taught in school...is true.

Awesome Old Guy, I spike everything, but I make collar cuts. The do-gooders have demonized me ever since I have been on this site about spiking around power, even though it is the safest way for a man to live around power and most of them don't climb around it. I know spiking trees isn't good for trees, but I come first, hard to accept for some, people always come first. The PC, Hilary Clinton, takes a village, big brother knows best crowd can take a flying leap. Spike if you want, hump ropes if you want, do whatever turns your crank. I would love to see these PC freaks try and spurless what I climb now, old growth cedars, over 150', with the dead branches first at 70' and the live branches all drooping down.

 

[avalontree]

what?

How can you even begin to say that spiking a tree is okay/ Forget about the health part and all that, its friggin ugly and if you're gonna sell people dead wooding or pruning or whatever you do and not let them in on how spiking trees without killing them is not a common practice then i really want to move where you live and throw out some advertsing.

And what does H. Clinton have to do with trees?

 

[clearance]

How can you even begin to say that spiking a tree is okay/ Forget about the health part and all that, its friggin ugly and if you're gonna sell people dead wooding or pruning or whatever you do and not let them in on how spiking trees without killing them is not a common practice then i really want to move where you live and throw out some advertsing.

And what does H. Clinton have to do with trees?

H.Clinton was very much part of the crowd that wants to tell you how and what to do in your own life, thats what, kind of like you and your fellow spurless zealots. You come out here to where I live and try to sell your spurless bs windfirming trees, wearing caulks while you do it. Like I said try spurless climbing big old growth red cedars, with caulks now Buddy. Tell me how its done before you buy a ticket.

 

[avalontree]

mandatory spiking

you have a point, but man! You're more fired up than a pitbull. All i know is that if I was allowed to start spiking trees, I might feel a little bad about it at first, and then when I got used to it I wouldn't care and that would be the problem in and of itself. If you have to do it, then I guess you have tol. Im not buying any ticket . Why dont you run for office and make spiking mandatory?

 

[clearance]

Spiking trims is a sign of an uneducated or under trained arborist.

Can you spurless climb a 150' tall old growth red cedar with no live branches for 70'-80' that then droop down? Wearing caulk boots? Of course not, go sit in the truck, cause thats what you would be doing till the day was over if you brought your sorry ass up here. Not really fired up, laughing at you guys, well can ya do it? Lets hear all about it, educate me, know it alls.

 

[clearance]

It's easy if you know how.

So you have spurless climbed with caulks, wow, you the man, tell us about it, big old red cedars too, damn, where abouts?

 

[Tree Machine]

guys....! :deadhorse:

 

[clearance]

So you have spurless climbed with caulks, wow, you the man, tell us about it, big old red cedars too, damn, where abouts?

Waiting for an answer.......

 

[clearance]

This is a 185' tall Ponderosa Pine that is 5 feet thick at the base. No spikes were used to access this tree. This stuff ain't rocket science Clearance.

It ain't a red cedar and I can't tell if anyone is wearing caulks. That sure is a killer flag though, thanks.

 

[trevmcrev]

Waiting for an answer.......

Hi Clearance, i think i see where you're coming from but.............

In Australia we have lots of very tall Eucs. A long way to the first branch, just as far as you say, sometimes further. A bigshot will get you up there. As far as safety goes i think you are safer tied in from above than just working your way up on spurs & flipline. Maybe you feel firing a bigshot as close to the lines as you are is not safe, but they can be accurate to the exact fork you want to hit with practice.

As for the caulks, I've seen before you've mentioned the are a mandatory safety requirement for you, but is that in terms of walking through the bush?

If so could you not take them off, swap for regular boots when set up and ready to ascend-without spurs on?

I respect what you do still, and yes i like my power, but there may be other ways of doing what you do if you felt it really mattered.

And oldugly, years after pruning with spikes on a tree the decay from all those wounds will link up(decay spreads most vertically) creating a significant column of decay. This may not directly "kill" the tree, but will certainly lead to it's premature removal.

15 years in this caper i've yet to come across a live tree requiring pruning that could not be done without spikes.

As for celebrity arborists, in Australia at least if not internationally i'd have to say Graham McMahon. His removal/rigging work is nothing short of genius, and there probably isnt another climber in Aust that doesnt look up to him in some way or another.

Trev

 

[oldugly]

I'm glad I got some people riled up, its good to re-evaluate your beliefs and confirm them....but I think I was not entirely understood.
#1 I never said spiking trees was good for them
#2 I never condoned the practice for all trims, or even the majority of them
#3 I DID however state that I have never seen a tree killed by spiking

What I did not initiate, or intend to was to open a can of worms that would lead to a disrespect for eachother, (although I couldn't give a D-mn what you think of me) The fact is that alot of you have valuable experience, education, and knowledge to share and I appreciate that. I also appreciate that when I laid down this challenge, it was in response to a statement that only the textbook answer of a good climber was legitimate. I see alot more than that out there.

If you recall I said Tom, and several others would rate as the "great ones" here. I also mentioned Clearance by name, and several of his greatest critics..(although I did not mention by name they would include Treeco, and Treeseer, and a few others that I am sure I have lost all respect from because of my statements.)

What I intended to illustrate and to hopefully encourage was the respect for others regardless of the textbook answer. I value the CA's very highly, and I wish I had the time or the energy to devote to joining your ranks, but I don't. Also I am getting up in years and really don't want to apply myself to a change of direction at this time.

Tom has done something with his experience in helping to promote safe practices, raise the standards in our industry, and as patiently as possible, (sometimes much more patient than I would be myself) instruct others on the learning he has recieved.

Clearanc, although ridiculed sometimes, at least is vocal and willing to share what he has learned over the years in utility clearance, and is not afraid to question the status quo, or the textbook answer to age old questions.

Treeco has obviously built a successful business and a lot of business owners could learn a lot from him.

Treeseer has a lot of valuable technical information and I respect his opinion very highly.

What I am saying in evaluating your peers, don't give a pat textbook answer to your question, and open your mind to others who may do something different, and in your opinion wrong. Because although his methods may be different, he possibly learned from a different book than you. There are many clebrities in this business...Dr. Shigo, Peter Donnelli, (I hope I spelled his name right) Mr. Daveys, etc. but the true great ones are the ones that serve their customers day to day, and they will always be your true judges.

After saying all that, for years I would not use spikes on trim jobs. After many re-trims following other company's work I still have not found a tree killed by spiking. So I started using them again when it was more efficient to do so, and I can give my customers a better deal this way.

Treeco, I loved the picture....however I do not know many companies that can afford to have that many trimmers in one tree. How big was the mortgage the customer had to take out for that one?

Good luck to you all.

 

[xtremetrees]

I agree with oldugly.
The ones here that are so vehimatly against spikeing are mostly flying buckets:hmm3grin2orange:

The book says they are moderately to extremely harmful.SPIKES I disagree and if you do own and fly a bucket to me your not a arborist.
Your a bucket flyer and really to me your a scam artist. What I mean is in removals where do you stand? Do you throwball them? I agree with olduglys point where after the show the client says wow that was expensive but I'd pay again to see spandal balet? Bucket wont reach your not really giving your all to trees, climb out of it.

The overboardedness with maintain ethics of not spiking trims may lead other less expereienced to throwball dead/weak/dying branches.

It took me last week almost 1.5 hrs to get into the tree. Luckily for the client I wasnt charging by the hour.



Dead/dying/weakly attached.
Remeber dead readers many will impliment what you say maybe not now maybe in a search 10 years from now.

I am becomming a treeman that charges by his throwball profeciency?
If your not charging more as a C.A. spikeless triming you should be.

 

[clearance]

Hi Clearance, i think i see where you're coming from but.............

In Australia we have lots of very tall Eucs. A long way to the first branch, just as far as you say, sometimes further. A bigshot will get you up there. As far as safety goes i think you are safer tied in from above than just working your way up on spurs & flipline. Maybe you feel firing a bigshot as close to the lines as you are is not safe, but they can be accurate to the exact fork you want to hit with practice.

As for the caulks, I've seen before you've mentioned the are a mandatory safety requirement for you, but is that in terms of walking through the bush?

If so could you not take them off, swap for regular boots when set up and ready to ascend-without spurs on?

I respect what you do still, and yes i like my power, but there may be other ways of doing what you do if you felt it really mattered.


Trev

Trev, thanks, well written, legitimate points, I'll explain. Throwlines around power, 25kv line for example, the rule is that nothing can come closer than 4' to the line that is unisulated, a tool that is insulated (trimsaw, polepruner) can come as close as 11/2'. So by chucking a throwline higher than the primary there is a chance it could come in contact with the lines or wrap around them, even if it came closer than 4', it would be a violation of provincial work laws and the utilities rules. Making you liable for suspension or revocation of your ticket to work around power, at the very least a note in your file. Caulk boots, simple, the law is "workers required to walk on logs, timbers, shall wear caulks." That basically means the whole time you are away from the pickup, not going to change my boots on and off all day long for anyone, impratical and most likely violating the law some of the time. Trees-we work in an old growth rainforest, the trees are tough, the growing season for them is at least 11 months a year. I see trees all the time that have big damage, big tops ripped off by the wind, co-doms with one stem busted off from being hit by another tree, trees growing with 40' catfaces, etc. Growing well, hundreds of years old, still going strong. Spurring them is like jabbing an elephant with a paper clip.

 

[coydog]

I agree with oldugly.
The ones here that are so vehimatly against spikeing are mostly flying buckets:hmm3grin2orange:

The book says they are moderately to extremely harmful.SPIKES I disagree and if you do own and fly a bucket to me your not a arborist.
Your a bucket flyer and really to me your a scam artist.
It took me last week almost 1.5 hrs to get into the tree. Luckily for the client I wasnt charging by the hour.

xtreme, you make me laugh, I have a hard time figuring out sometimes if you are :
a- a troll
b- actually believe the nonsense you preach
c- a hopeless poser wannabe
And before all the AS feelgooders jump on me for flaming him, I'll remind everyone of his statement that the only way to survive a fall is to land on your feet.

 

[Tree Machine]

Flame!!!!


Ahhhh. Now I feel warm and fuzzy.

 

[trees4est]

around power, 25kv line for example, the rule is that nothing can come closer than 4' to the line that is unisulated, a tool that is insulated (trimsaw, polepruner) can come as close as 11/2'. So by chucking a throwline higher than the primary there is a chance it could come in contact with the lines or wrap around them, even if it came closer than 4', it would be a violation of provincial work laws and the utilities rules. Making you liable for suspension or revocation of your ticket to work around power, at the very least a note in your file. Caulk boots, simple, the law is "workers required to walk on logs, timbers, shall wear caulks."

Man, did Hillary Clinton write those laws? Trying to tell you what to do. What a do-gooder bleeding heart.

 

[clearance]

Man, did Hillary Clinton write those laws? Trying to tell you what to do. What a do-gooder bleeding heart.

WTF? Are you retarded?

 

[trees4est]

WTF? Are you retarded?

Gosh, I guess I am. Why do you ask? Did you not understand something?