arguement with an Arborist

[lxt]

Today, I went to look at a possible hazard tree, home owner worried about her Ash tree the home owner resides in a town classified as Tree City & is regulated by a Shade Tree Counsel.

So here`s the story: Large double leader Ash approx. 60-70ft tall 1-lead with a slight lean toward house the other a slight lean toward street, included bark is noticeable, her concern is with the weather, ice, snow, freeze & thaw, etc.. the section aiming toward her home may fracture & cause damage as this has happened several times before & with the same specie of tree.

I met with the Current Arborist for the counsel & we discussed(atleast I tried) remedies to solve & prevent future complications. Short of taking the tree down(which I didnt even consider) I suggested the following:1- select limb removal to lighten the load(same for both leaders) & to cable & brace it, I gave her two options here invasive & non invasive.

the tree is in good health & doesnt appear to have any issues, I too would have the same concern as alot of damaged trees specifically Ash in my area fail & it is at the junction as descibed above, naturally I told her an inspection of the tree canopy(structure) would be first on the list just to make sure!! The Arborist disagreed entirely & suggested removal of the leader toward the house!!

If done his way I will be removing 1/2 the tree, he seemed unaffected by my reasoning & was insistant there would be future issues, mind you I suggested if splitting was present a fill would be possible or a weather cap!!

I told him to remove this much of the tree at such a mature age might not be wise, he told me the only thing that will get approved by him & a permit issued will be to engage in the work plan as he feels it should be done, now the home owner`s not very happy & im not either, this tree will look terrible!!

I suggested to the homeowner in front of the arborist that I would consult with an attorney #1- she wants to save her tree & prevent the inevitable should it happen #2- If done the arborists way will he take full responsibility for the outcome down the road should this tree die or something!!???

Im I wrong here I? opinions would be appreciated, pictures really wont do much as the inclusion is about 20-30ft up visible by eye dont know about by camera plus it was raining!!

LXT..............

 

[diltree]

I think you made some great recomendations, I'm in support of your course of action. It sounds like a pissing contest with this city arborist, some of these guys can be tough to deal with.

 

[TDunk]

I think you made some great recomendations, I'm in support of your course of action. It sounds like a pissing contest with this city arborist, some of these guys can be tough to deal with.

I agree 100%. He sounds like a pencil pushing desk jockey to me. He's probably read every book out there on tree's, but probably has never picked a silky before.

 

[(WLL)]

Today, I went to look at a possible hazard tree, home owner worried about her Ash tree the home owner resides in a town classified as Tree City & is regulated by a Shade Tree Counsel.

So here`s the story: Large double leader Ash approx. 60-70ft tall 1-lead with a slight lean toward house the other a slight lean toward street, included bark is noticeable, her concern is with the weather, ice, snow, freeze & thaw, etc.. the section aiming toward her home may fracture & cause damage as this has happened several times before & with the same specie of tree.

I met with the Current Arborist for the counsel & we discussed(atleast I tried) remedies to solve & prevent future complications. Short of taking the tree down(which I didnt even consider) I suggested the following:1- select limb removal to lighten the load(same for both leaders) & to cable & brace it, I gave her two options here invasive & non invasive.

the tree is in good health & doesnt appear to have any issues, I too would have the same concern as alot of damaged trees specifically Ash in my area fail & it is at the junction as descibed above, naturally I told her an inspection of the tree canopy(structure) would be first on the list just to make sure!! The Arborist disagreed entirely & suggested removal of the leader toward the house!!

If done his way I will be removing 1/2 the tree, he seemed unaffected by my reasoning & was insistant there would be future issues, mind you I suggested if splitting was present a fill would be possible or a weather cap!!

I told him to remove this much of the tree at such a mature age might not be wise, he told me the only thing that will get approved by him & a permit issued will be to engage in the work plan as he feels it should be done, now the home owner`s not very happy & im not either, this tree will look terrible!!

I suggested to the homeowner in front of the arborist that I would consult with an attorney #1- she wants to save her tree & prevent the inevitable should it happen #2- If done the arborists way will he take full responsibility for the outcome down the road should this tree die or something!!???

Im I wrong here I? opinions would be appreciated, pictures really wont do much as the inclusion is about 20-30ft up visible by eye dont know about by camera plus it was raining!!

LXT..............

is this tree on main st in doylestown?

 

[Canyonbc]

I think your suggestion was perfect.

Cutting half that tree off...well at that point you might a well remove it.

Heck lets top it...JUST KIDDING!

A couple days ago i was called out to bid on a removal of a 50ft Liquid Amber. About 15 ft up the tree branches off into 3 main leads...one of them leaning towards the house.

I called up my local arborist that i sub i jobs out too and with discussing him; we are going to lighten up the load on the leader toward the house..and a little on the other ones. We are also going to...a 3-4 above where the leads start brace it up...then 2/3rds up the tree from there cable the 3 leads up top.

I dont no if i should say we, i passed the job off to the arborist i sub work out too...but i will help him on the job.

 

[lxt]

I have worked in this town many times & never had a problem or complaint, this guy is new & young, the other gentleman retired, he was a good man & always open for discussion, this arborist I met one other time, short greeting not much of a talker.

other companies have cautioned about his methodology, & even suggested he lighten up a bit (in a nice way). he is outta school fresh & book knowledgeable a smart guy!! could possible be a good source of info & able to learn from (other than climbing, he dont go up in the air!!)

he comes across a bit hollier than thou, a lil arrogant & seemingly not willing to take others opinions, I really!!! tried to reason with him & asked for other suggestions short of taking the whole lead off. he just wont hear of it, its his way or no way!! I guess the home owner called the counsel & asked if I would join her, I said I would (know most of em) but I dont want to offend & I made that clear, I said I would just provide my opinion Im not going to argue, let the counsel make the decision.

nice lady, very agreeable but she aint having her tree cut in 1/2!!!

LXT..............

 

[lxt]

is this tree on main st in doylestown?

No, its in a town called Beaver, a fairly well off section of town!! which is why I dont want to do it the arborists way, ive done some work in this section & folks were pleased dont wanna mess this up!! the folks here in this section would save a dead tree(just kiddin) but they love their trees & dont mind footing the bill for preventative measures & keeping up with it!!

LXT.......

 

[(WLL)]

if the tree is a threat to people and or homes it should come down. but if the owner wants to keep the tree and has the finances to do so than do what you think will lessen the risk. you should not need a permit to trim. i would make her sign off to a waiver keeping the trees failure on her. if the inevitable happens than you can take the tree off her house and she can pay. i think its a win-win.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

I think you made some great recomendations, I'm in support of your course of action. It sounds like a pissing contest with this city arborist, some of these guys can be tough to deal with.

Wow Tim, "Tough to deal with"? what about the rest of us?

LXT, I think the best thing is to meet with the Counsil and be as polite as possible. Any type of sarcasm or questioning of this guys credentials will make you look less professional. If he is young and inexperienced, you gotta make it real eazy for him to see the light and reverse his recommendation.(if you can make him think its his idea, all the better!) It will also be helpful to have a few other written proposals from C.A.'s in the area.

On a side note. Am I to understand this town has a right to rule on what a citizen can and cannot do on their own property?

 

[diltree]

Wow Tim, "Tough to deal with"? what about the rest of us?

ha ha...I obviously wasn't referring to you

 

[OTG BOSTON]

ha ha...I obviously wasn't referring to you

'course not! :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[lxt]

OTG, to answer your question Yes if the tree is within the towns street right of way, No if its outside of it. this tree falls within the right of way!!

A few years back the town invoked an ordinance about topping trees, this you cant do anywhere!! the town also engaged in regulating trimming, removal & maint. of street trees, the towns row seems a little over the line in some instances but hey someone wrote it this way & I just follow it.

A street tree is just not between the sidewalk & roadway either some trees as in this case are literally in the persons front yard, the ROW is 35ft from center of road total 70 ft wide, this really gets a lil scetchy on the one way single lane roads or deadend culdesac type settings because they who wrote the ROW widths didnt take these settings into consideration!!

I hope im explaining this ok, putting it into words is kinda tuff, am suppose to meet with Arborist & counsel after the holidays as per the homeowners request.

LXT......................

 

[Ekka]

Sounds like one of those text book arborists.

Try deal with him, then his superior, then the mayor, dont forget the media, ask the ISA to get involved, start a petition, take plenty of pics for the news etc

Plently of actions to take yet, but at the end of the day it should be your client that takes it, or pays you for your time.

Many times you find you go into bat for a client who doesn't support you anyway.

 

[treeseer]

I met with the Current Arborist for the counsel & we discussed(atleast I tried) remedies to solve & prevent future complications. The Arborist disagreed entirely & suggested removal of the leader toward the house!!

If done his way I will be removing 1/2 the tree, he seemed unaffected by my reasoning & was insistant there would be future issues,

future issues from removing half the tree include the other half rotting and breaking. :monkey: The sad thing is, USFS people who teach risk assessment say this all the time. They do not look into the future.

lxt, your reasoning is perfectly sound, and the other "Arborist" sounds way off. If you want to pm me their name I would like to forward some information to them. Cabling and pruning are basic and proven services. One very traditional look Related at this, see page 32 here: http://www.treecareindustry.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_July_07.pdf

 

[lxt]

thanks treeseer, Ill wait till we all meet & see what the outcome is, I dont want to bombard the guy with anything, give em a little time & hopefully after we all meet an amicable resolve will have been made.

The Home owner will be paying for my time throughout this ordeal as I have already discussed it with her, she is fine & has no reservations about it!!

My understanding is that hopefully she can pursuade the council into reconsidering the ROW distances pertaining to certain streets!! we`ll see!

I appreciate the opinions & advice, Not being a CA I was looking for the right approach in this situation, I employ the same techniques an arborist would & use the same amount of care just dont have the Cert.....working on that!!

LXT..........

 

[hornett22]

you have to remember............

most government employees are like college professors.they are where they are because they cannot make it in the reality of private business.the government will pay any brainwashable idiot a obnoxious salary if they tow the BS line and bend over at will.

woman here at the DEP tree department compared herself to an IRS agent.that is all i needed to know.

 

[Dadatwins]

Young & arrogant with a position of power, dangerous combo. Suggest some printed paperwork showing proper mature tree care options. ISA has some nice handouts. Maybe show some pictures of trees that have been cut in half and show the decay from the oversize cuts and the results. Also get another opinion from other arborists in the area, might be worth the $50-75 consult fee out of your pocket to make sure you get this job done the right way, and hopefully put junior in his place for the next time. good luck.

 

[juststumps]

do it on a saturday when the guy isn't around!!!!!!

seems like there is an issue between the home owners property line rights,, and a local shade tree ordinance.... i'd check what the state regs are, as far as trees over hanging property lines....

i can't see why the guy would have an issue with a cable, and or a rod in the tree,, with some reduction of over extended limbs... VS hacking 1/2 the tree off...

no one would know you were there,, doing it your way.......people will see half a tree gone... and it probbably will look like crap...

weird thing is,,, must of the book smart guys would go your way,, instead of whacking the tree in half !!!!!! very odd....

i'd do it on the weekend,, shoe polish the white eyes, and deny deny deny!!! LOL

 

[pbtree]

I think you made some great recomendations, I'm in support of your course of action. It sounds like a pissing contest with this city arborist, some of these guys can be tough to deal with.

I concur completely...

 

[OTG BOSTON]

I'll play devils advocate on this one just for fun. I don't like using cables in street trees because if the tree should fail in a storm and get sent through a chipper, bye bye chipper. One less crew in an emergency.

Also a cable is an admission that there is a structural weakness in the tree. An acceptable level of risk for a tree on private property, not the same for a municipality, especially in a roadway.