Backing up the 8

[Lumberjack]

I thought that I read a thread on this already but I couldn't find it.

After trying it out, I use a rescue 8 with a 6 coil prusic on a biner cliped into the top of the 8. I now use it when working off of SRT, when all I have to do is go down and around. When comming out of the tree/spar or long decents I take off the backup and smoke it down on my 8 without damaging the rope.

I think this will put off getting an petzel I'D for now.

Carl

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Carl,

This ground has been raked before but there always seems to be just a little bit more to attend to.

Clipping into the top of the figure 8 is a novel idea, but I don't think its a good one.

Have you spent time researching "rapel backups" ? You should...

Using your setup rather than an I'd is no different than using a dull chain. It works, but not very well.

Oh, well, to each their own...

Tom

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Has anyone ever tried using the stitch plate hole friction strategy with 8 or stitch plate itself for non-spiraling friction device?

 

[Lumberjack]

"This ground has been raked before but there always seems to be just a little bit more to attend to.

Clipping into the top of the figure 8 is a novel idea, but I don't think its a good one.

Have you spent time researching "rapel backups" ? You should...

Using your setup rather than an I'd is no different than using a dull chain. It works, but not very well.

Oh, well, to each their own..."

Why would clipping to the top not be a good idea? Just curious.

After I figured out how the prusick bound up, I worked as well as I would ever hope, it was smooth, and it locked up without hesitation.

The only drawback would be that you can't go up, only down.

I used it yesterday in the pine, working down, and it was great, didn't lock up, stopped instantly, fine on my scale. On another note, but kinda doesn't matter, my setup was free, the I'D is $160.


"Has anyone ever tried using the stitch plate hole friction strategy with 8 or stitch plate itself for non-spiraling friction device?"


Does that mean like an ATC? If so then yes I have one.


Carl

 

[Tom Dunlap]

The whole notion of using eights, even with backups, is the wrong road in my opinion.

Put another way...using eights is the same as using fourth string chainsaws like Poulan and Mac instead of first string saws like Husky and, well, is there another first string saw? Just kidding, don't start the trip down that road...

By clipping in the friction hitch to the eight, you've added to a chain instead of setting up a seperate system. Think of parallel instead of series.

Sure, the I'd costs more. It works way better too. There's no comparison between the I'd and eights or other friction tools.

Have you read through Gary Storrick's site? Not just looked at his pictures? He has gathered a wealth of information. After you read his articles, get back to me and let me know what you think about backups.

Tom

 

[Lumberjack]

Well I burned though (the cover of) 2 ultatech cords at the last 2 jobs I did. Friction hitches make alot of heat!! Both of the times I was decending, after working, and was decending relatively slow I thought. I liked the hitch method fine, except I would burn to much tress cord. I think on the decents from now on I will just use my eight, when I am comming out of the top, I like to pretty well freefall till about 10' off the ground, that is what I call fun, but I will probably grow out of it eventually.

Anywho I just ordered and I'd and a coupla other things from sherrill, like the ISA study book, for this febuary.


Tom, where is that guys site. I found several that featured him, but not him exclusively.

Also is there anything I should know about the I'd? Are I'd's required to be backed up?


Thanks
Carl

 

[Burnham]

Carl, you can always use a ground belay as backup, if you wish. I think I remember that you make it a habit to have a groundie on your jobs. When you are ready to make a descent, just have the groundman take hold of your lifeline and watch you rappel down. He gives you enough slack so you can rappel at your desired speed, but if he sees you loose control, or you give him verbal instruction, he can stop or control your descent quite easily. He only needs to put a relatively minor amount of tension on your line to effect solid breaking action on the eight. This is standard operating procedure in my organization for rappels, and it gives you a much easier to manage backup than a hitch, without the potential to burn out your hitch backup by continueing to hold it if you loose control of the eight.

 

[Crofter]

Gary Storrick's site

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Burnham
Carl, you can always use a ground belay as backup, if you wish. I think I remember that you make it a habit to have a groundie on your jobs. When you are ready to make a descent, just have the groundman take hold of your lifeline and watch you rappel down. He gives you enough slack so you can rappel at your desired speed, but if he sees you loose control, or you give him verbal instruction, he can stop or control your descent quite easily. He only needs to put a relatively minor amount of tension on your line to effect solid breaking action on the eight. This is standard operating procedure in my organization for rappels, and it gives you a much easier to manage backup than a hitch, without the potential to burn out your hitch backup by continueing to hold it if you loose control of the eight.

You misunderstood my use of the backup, and about the I'D.

I use the backup to stop my decent when I am working, so a groundie holding the rope tight wouldn't work. Here when I tought repelling we called that butt belay, and we used it on all repels of non staffers for insurance reasons I think.

I was talking about the I'D needing a backup like a mechanical ascender.


Carl

 

[Burnham]

Well, that's not a backup, Carl. What you want is to hard lock off the eight. Do you know how to do that? You must if you have instructed rappels. Easier on an eight with ears, even easier with the ears mounted on the side, like a RQ3 rescue 8, but doable with a recreational eight, too. Which are you using?

I'm no expert on the I'd, so I can't answer your question except with an opinion. I wouldn't, but then I don't go with a hitch backup for an eight descender either, and lots of people do that, sooo...

 

[Lumberjack]

I wanted hard lock without having to tie it every time I wanted to move a coupla feet. I use a Rescue 8, which is the large 8 with the ears on the side.

On repells, I don't use a backup, I was working off the 8 so I used the backup to hold me while I worked, then came down however far, and let it lock again. That was alot faster than tying a hard lock every time.

I figured that since the I'D is a mechanical device, it would require a backup, like an ascender.


Carl

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I'm confident in the workings of the I'd to not use a backup. Using the I'd keeps it close to my chest where I can keep debris from jamming anything open. Having the panic brake in the mechanism is enough of a back up for me.

In order for the I's to function all of the time, the climbers rope needs to be kept snug. If there's slack, the locking mechanism might not lock off right away. I understand, and am very aware of, that limitation so I keep my rope snug.

My idea is to have backups when there is the possiblity of a tool opening. Not all of my systems have redundancies built into them. Backing up ascenders is so easy and gives me a lot more confidence.

Tom

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
My idea is to have backups when there is the possiblity of a tool opening. Not all of my systems have redundancies built into them. Backing up ascenders is so easy and gives me a lot more confidence.

Tom

What about closed shell ascenders? My CMI Ropewalker? has the quick pin, but it is aproved by ANSI because it takes 2 motions to release like a biner.


Carl

 

[Burnham]

Carl, I guess it's true enough that tieing a lock off isn't as fast as stopping on the hitch, and if you want to do it often it would be a pain. Since you have the I'd coming soon, I think you are gonna go with that cool tool when you have it, and the eight will drop to the bottom of your gear bag. It's on my wish list, too.

 

[Lumberjack]

I will always use my eight for long decents, and it will always be on my side. I guess just a habit, it may change but old habits die hard.


Carl

 

[Tom Dunlap]

If the only thing you're using that 8 shaped boat anchor for is to take some friction off your hitch, save the messing around. Use an HMS biner for a Munter or even cheaper and less bulk, do a leg wrap. You'd be surprised how much friction you can get by spiraling the rope around a leg.

When I was working in the shop this evening I thought about what I said about the I'd having the potential for slipping. To put this in perspective, everyone cautions new users of advanced friction hitches to tie the legs short. If not, some AFH's like the VT, are notorious for slipping. Tied correctly they work great. The same type of caution is needed using the I'd. Even with a candy cane in the rope, the I'd will grab but the climber may hit something else before the mechanism locks off. By following good climbing procedure, keeping slack out of the rope tail, the chance of slippage is reduced a lot.

Tom

 

[Lumberjack]

I have been using the 8 to repell. I added the hitch so I could stop without hardlocking. When I am decending using the 8 and the hitch, I pull the hitch down and let the 8 do the work. I don't climb with hitches, or use them on hardly anything sept the DEDA.


Carl