Bad day

[Magnum783]

Please do not rake me over the coals here fellers I am just trying to learn so here goes.

I was taking down a large 38DBH partially rotten oak. I hip thrust my way to the first limb to be removed, I removed it using the gravity method. I repeated this procedure for about fifteen more limbs only two had to be roped off and they were small and we just used the rope more or less to get them to the ground it a vertical fashion, meaning we let them run straight to the ground only slowing them right before the ground. I removed all the branches I needed too except for one which was leaning in the direction I was going to fall the rest of the tree. Had a 20' opening to put the tree in. Tied a bull rope good and high in the tree climbed to the ground tensioned the rope with the winch made my notch gunned it exactly where I wanted it to fall. Began the back cut, the guys put a little more tension on the line. I keep looking up tree begins to fall right where I want it at the last minute it swings hard left and hits shed and boat. It looked to me as it caught on the rotten spot. My hinge broke perfectly even. Not good, now to give a little more description of the trunk it had a rotten cavern it the middle that was open to the outside. There was plenty of strong wood left to climb it but not enough for rigging. The tree had tons of green leaves.
Advice please what can I do to keep it from happening again. This was quite expensive as I opted to pay out of pocket to keep from raising my rates and the homeowner agree to a cash settlement and I rebuilt the car port (I am carpenter in the AF) Please don't tear me to bits too bad. I admit I screwed up somewhere just don't know where?
Jared :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

 

[BostonBull]

Pictures of the hinge and log would be very helpful..Was the winch dead on where you wanted it to go? If not this may have influenced it one way or the other. Did you leave more hinge wood on one side than the other? Was it a clean Notch with NO bypasses or chunks left in the notch?

 

[CoreyTMorine]

38 DBH is alot of room to lose track of your bar. Did you double cut it? or did you have a 40" bar on? if you did double cut it are you sure that you didn't cut a dutchman into the hinge?

I guess you said that your hinge broke even all the way across, so no dutchman. How wide was the hinge? were all the splinters the same length and consistancy? or was the rotten section through the hingewood on one side? Was the hinge squared off or did you leave one side wider than the other? they drift towards the wide side. Was the hinge perpendicular to the trunk? they swing into the high side if not.

I lost one last winter; there was a vine that i didn't see. Pulled the damn thing right over into the garden, 45 degrees off. No harm done, but i didn't like it.

If your rope was tied lower in the tree (like 20' in an 80' tree), and run out to a snatch block located along the gun, then tied to a pull vehicle, the driver could have pulled the tree towards the snatch block all through the fall, Assuming that he had good traction and enough weight in the pull vehicle.

The other safety for pull trees is to run guy lines. These can help to get a tree falling the right way even if the hinge fails; but they cannot really pull the tree into the lay after it starts to go.

I also like to stick a wedge in the heavy side of the tree, right up next to the the hinge, and actually pointing perpendicular to the gun. I mostly cut swede style, that is facecut bleed the center, bore into the heavy side of the tree, sweep foward and set up my hinge on the heavy side, then walk the saw around to the back, set wedges, continue to walk the saw around to the safe side and cut until the tree goes or i have to drive wedges. I think that the wedge supporting the heavy side of the hinge helps it to act more like the high side hinge.

If you figure out what happened please post it, i think that most people here will think more of you if you own a screw up rather than disappearing if you find yourself to be at fault here.

Payig out of pocket is probably good thing, thats always been my plan on anything under about 10k.

 

[ASD]

option #

1 if YOU can't rig it use a Crane (learn to sell them they make it so much safer)

2 bomb it piece by piece (you bombed the limbs)

3 pass on the job next time if you are not set up to do the tricky one's and live to work another day (car port and a boat you can replace for $$$ but someone could of got killed)

 

[CoreyTMorine]

option #

1 if YOU can't rig it use a Crane (learn to sell them they make it so much safer)

2 bomb it piece by piece (you bombed the limbs)

3 pass on the job next time if you are not set up to do the tricky one's and live to work another day (car port and a boat you can replace for $$$ but someone could of got killed)

+1 ASD. A few years ago one of the crews around here had a similar accident that resulted in a dead ground woman. Magnum, I just noticed that your only 23, how did you learn about tree work?

 

[Sassafras]

too many

The bad day is over. Now you try to figure out how to always have good days.
My thoughts without seeing it sounds like the notch wasnt cleaned out or you didn't open it up enough. I almost always open my notch to 90 degrees or more, never compromising the hinge until the tree is on the ground. the other posts hit just about every other possibility i thought of. so tough without seeing it. Thank the lord no one was hurt.

 

[kkottemann]

Magnum,
Do not sweat it, you are lucky no one was hurt. Learn from you mishap and move on. I have screwed many things up, and still do from time to time. I have customers who I thought would sue me and take everything I own, the thing you have to do is fix the mistake no matter what it takes. A true professional with backbone and character will accept the fact that it is his problem and take the proper steps to solve it. Finish the job, fix the shed, repair the boat and look that man in the eye and apoligize for the the way the job turned out. I would be willing to bet everything will be alright, and probably get recomended in the future.

Oh... and just block the tree down next time...just my two cents

 

[polingspig]

I did it too.

Clearence made this comment in the wedge vs. rope thread:

One thing that is true, most arborists are NOT fallers.

I agree with him. Just last week I let a small laurel Oak (10" DBH) fall into a privacy fence. I only replaced one dog eared board, but I was embarrassed beyond measure. I brought the tip of the bar too far a round and cut the hinge on the far side. It was only a branch that got the fence, but people were watching. It was the last tree to fell in the yard and I saved it just because of how easy it was supposed to be.

We had already taken down three very good sized Live Oaks that were reaching out over the Client's and Neighbor's houses. All of the neighborhood watched that. Then the guy who owns the company can't fell a little tree the right way. It was stupid.

 

[joesawer]

Without pics it is all just speculation. How much side weight was going toward the boat and shed?
When I was 23 I tore down 5 spans of 3 phase in my little home town on New Years Day at about 11:00 am. I was not a popular person, with all the people watching ball games and cooking holiday meals.

 

[SilentElk]

It happens. Personally, if I am pulling a tree over I wouldnt use a winch if at all possible. Just too slow. A vehicle or a couple guys if the tree is smaller. If you have a high tie in point, you would be amazed what a couple of guys could pull over. Still, I dont know the exact situation so I couldnt tell ya what went wrong.

These things happen. Fix the damage and move on.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

You gambled on a shortcut to save time and a bit of $, and you lost.

Anything rotten like that should have been blocked off. If the wood isnt consistant all the way through then your scarf is never going to be worth much.

ROTTEN TREES FOLLOW NO RULES.


You should be relieved nobody got hurt. Perhaps you need more experience before being in the position of making calls like this.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I gotta go with the block-it-down crowd. Too many guys are in a hurry and just want to fell the whole tree to get the job over and done with. Sooner or later, if the drop site is anything but all clear for a good distance, one tree or another will catch ya! Last week, even blocking down a tall sycamore, even with my guys running a tag line, we dinged a fence slat. Reason? It was getting late, I was tired, and went for a six foot section of a 28" DBH tree. Wrong move! The piece took a hop as it hit, even though it was tagged, and bounced back into the fence. I honestly thought the fence was going to be totalled, but miraculously only a single slat lost its top. The owner laughed it off and told me not to worry about it. He even tipped us $50! Great guy, no lie!

I still meditate on my Mom's words, unless I forget them as I did that day: "HASTE MAKES WASTE!"

 

[Magnum783]

Magnum,
Do not sweat it, you are lucky no one was hurt. Learn from you mishap and move on. I have screwed many things up, and still do from time to time. I have customers who I thought would sue me and take everything I own, the thing you have to do is fix the mistake no matter what it takes. A true professional with backbone and character will accept the fact that it is his problem and take the proper steps to solve it. Finish the job, fix the shed, repair the boat and look that man in the eye and apoligize for the the way the job turned out. I would be willing to bet everything will be alright, and probably get recomended in the future.

Oh... and just block the tree down next time...just my two cents

Thanks for the relief man, that is exactly what I am doing making it right. I already apologized and he says things happen. I don't have pictures of the hinge I will look though. The winch was head dead on in the direction I wanted to fall to answer someones question. Keep up the good advice I appreciate it tons.
Jared

 

[Wolfking42084]

don't worry man, things happen. I lost a limb that fell on a chain link section just the other day. like they said, just apologize and offer anything and everything to fix it and even extras. As for the age thing, that makes a difference sometimes. But, too many accidents have happened with experienced "older" people to go by that all the time. the only way people learn is by doing the task and if mistakes happen, thats something you won't do again for certain. Putting an age on something is totally foolish if experience is there.

 

[alanarbor]

One thing to consider: being off a miniscule amount on your notch at the base can translate to being off by a lot if the log is tall enough.

Once gravity takes over, no group of guys or vehicle will be able to keep up with the speed of fall, and make it go in the opposite direction. (I've learned that one painfully both as the puller and the feller)

Was the log at a lean towards the shed?

I also agree with the Block it out asessment, often times this may be the best results if you don't have an appropriate margin of error for your drop zone.

As was said before, without pictures this is really difficult to speculate on.

 

[jrparbor04]

never have believed in a winch method or using a truck,,,i use a 5:1 rig and the z-rig,,,and use hinges,,,i havent been perfect with felling,,,but i am a Certified Arborist and fell on a daily basis!!!!!

 

[Farmer Ferd]

Sometimes an once of prevention. I will often put another bull line that is static running to another tree just to prevent such a situation. or just bomb it. I had an 85' tall cherry today that i was just itching to drop. I think I could have threaded it between two trees. It cost me an hour more to bomb it. better safe then sorry.

 

[dakota]

You gambled on a shortcut to save time and a bit of $, and you lost.

Anything rotten like that should have been blocked off. If the wood isnt consistant all the way through then your scarf is never going to be worth much.

ROTTEN TREES FOLLOW NO RULES.

.

You guys gonna block down rotten wood while in the saddle? It doesn't seem worth it to me. If you can't hammer it down or dump it and don't have access to a bucket truck, then walk away.

 

[Magnum783]

I finished the shed tonight all the shingles are on and that is the last thing to do . I have to go back tomorrow and give him a check for the boat and pick up and I am done. He is really happy with the shed good for him I am a carpenter in the military and did it for years before the military. Thanks for all you advice fellers. I could have blocked it down and should have to answer those questions. I also could have done ten other things but I didn't so I built and car port and bought a boat I will never see. Thanks again guys. AS for the notch it was dead on if not a little the opposite direction. Learn and let live I guess will have to be motto for this day.
Jared

 

[TimberMcPherson]

You guys gonna block down rotten wood while in the saddle? It doesn't seem worth it to me. If you can't hammer it down or dump it and don't have access to a bucket truck, then walk away.

A bucket truck would access less than 1% of the jobs I do, the only tree companies that have them only use them for line work. Cranes arent alot better. A spiderlift would only MAYBE be able to access 20%. I have worked around helicopters more than cranes, because access around here is really bad. I have a 4wd truck because driveways (and sometimes roads) are to steep for a 2wd to push a chipper.

By the sound of it the tree wasnt that rotten, so I would have blocked it.