Bailey's sprocket washer and E-clip for MS460

[Adam_MA]

Last weekend I took my clutch drum off so I could grease the drive sprocket bearing as I had a very large maple to cut up. Apparently, I didn't get the e-clip back on all the way, and after my first cut I noticed that my chain was very lose. When I couldn't adjust the chain, I took off the clutch cover and found that the sprocket washer and e-clip were missing, and the bearing was just a cage. I only needed to make a couple more cuts for the loader to pick up the logs, so I just used another saw to finish the cuts. Not a real big issue as I had already ordered these parts from Bailey's. Last night, I went to install the new parts and ran into a couple of problems. First, the e-clip is very low quality metal. First, the sprocket washer was designed a bit different than the Stihl one. The center where it tapers in had sharp corners, and the center was only large enough for the closed e-clip. On top of this, it seemed a little thicker than the factory one so it left a very tight tolerance for the e-clip to catch the groove. This made getting the e-clip on almost impossible. On top of this there was little to no "spring" to the metal, and when you would start to slide it on, it would just stretch open and I would have to close it back up with pliers and try again. In the end I just snapped it on, then had to use a screw driver and a mallet to tap the edges of the clip down into the groove, and make the clip fit into the center divot. I ended up getting it all the way down and into the groove, made sure it was locked in there tight. It was at this point that I looked at the bench, and noticed that before I started this, I forgot to put the rim sprocket on. I tried like hell to get the clip back off, and it is just in there so damn tight, I don't know how I'm gonna get it back off.

So I guess my question is, has anyone had experience with these Bailey's parts. Did I just get a bad one? If you look at the washer on the site https://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=QA 00009 581032 The picture looks like the Stihl part, with the thick part tapering to the center with a narrow lip. The one I got, had no taper to it at all, just from thick outside, with a sharp and deep center cut out.

Also, any tips on how to get this damn thing back off now. I tried for a while last night, but I bent a screwdriver tip trying to pry it off, and got frustrated so I just walked away from it.

 

[rupedoggy]

Sounds like aftermarket Chinese junk. Cut it off and go to Stihl and get the original part.

 

[Adam_MA]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was going to order the parts from the Stihl dealer but I already had them on order as backups. They were actually less expensive from the dealer than from Bailey's. Guess I'll call it in today.

 

[Bounty Hunter]

We have Bailey's sprokets, washers and e-clips on a number of our work saws...never had a problem with any of them. Maybe you just got a bad batch of parts...

Call Bailey's and tell them what happened, I bet they will send ya new parts...

 

[Adam_MA]

Good sugestion. I'll have to get a picture of the washer today. It doesn't look like the one on the sight at all.

 

[mtngun]

Been using the Bailey's washers and e-clips for years, and I actually prefer their washer design over OEM.

The problem the OP describes sounds like he is not aware that the notch in the clutch drum must engage the pawl for the oil pump. If you install the drum without engaging the pawl, it will be difficult to seat the clip and it is likely to pop off while running.

Plus, it can do massive damage to the oil pump and crankcase.

Been there, and done all of the above.

Just make sure the notch is engaged.

 

[Adam_MA]

Thanks for the reply. I am aware of the clutch drum engagin the oiler. When it wouldn't go the first time that's the very first thing I looked for. Even with everything seated perfectly, the groove on the crank was just barely fully exposed

 

[Grande Dog]

Howdy,
We sell those clips and washers in the 10's of thousands. Sorry you're having issues. I'll have our washers and clips checked for spec. Stihl has bunch of different sprocket washers that pretty much do the same thing. There are two different washers that are the most used. The most popular one by far is the one you're describing http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=QA+00009+581032&catID=, (OEM version) http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=QS+0000+958+1032&catID= and the other is a thinner stamped version. http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=QS+0000+958+1029&catID= The nice thing is the clip comes of easier when changing. The problem is the clip comes off easier when using. Like with anything we carry, we stand behind it. Let us know what you think we owe you, and we'll hook you up.
Regards
Gregg

 

[Adam_MA]

Thank you Gregg. I have been dealing with Bailey's for over a year now, and I have always had great service. It's nice to know that a vendor I do business with is ready to help out it's customers.

Before I do anything else, I'm going to mess with it some more, and make sure I'm doing everything right on my end. I do have another question though. Should the back side of that washer be riding firmly against the plastic cage of the bearing once in place, or should the bearing be completely covered by the clutch drum? I noticed that the bearing cage does stick out slightly from under the drum. I cleaned the channel that it rides in under the drum, and made sure it was seated in as far as it can, but the washer is squished up against the bearing. Also when installed with the e-clip, should there be any play in the or wabble in the washer? As it's installed right now, it is a very tight fit.

Thanks again
Adam

 

[Grande Dog]

Howdy Adam,
The washer should bottom out against the first shoulder on the crankshaft. The bearing runs in the space created between the sprocket washer, and the second shoulder on the crankshaft. The bearing should have some free play. The way to check is to remove the drum and with just the bearing installed, put the sprocket washer on. There should be some room for the bearing to slide lengthwise with the shaft. If it binds, or the bearing is too wide for the space created between the washer and the second step in the crankshaft, we might have sent the wrong bearing. When installing a new clip and washer, their fit should be as tight as possible because they aren't going to do anything but get looser as they're used.

 

[mtngun]

I prefer the stamped sheet metal washers (00009 581032). They are certainly no thicker than the OEM washer, so if something is binding, then something is wrong somewhere else.

The clutch bearing should be about 0.458" - 0.460" long.

Sorry to insult your intelligence on the oiler pawl issue. Just covering the bases.

Another thing that can cause the symptoms you describe is if the clutch unscrews. Again, just covering the bases.

Going back to wear this all started ....

I took my clutch drum off so I could grease the drive sprocket bearing.....after my first cut ...... the sprocket washer and e-clip were missing, and the bearing was just a cage

So the OEM washer came off, too ? Maybe because you didn't put the e-clip on all the way, or maybe some other problem that caused the clutch drum to push against the washer. ?

Then you had to install a new clutch bearing. No, the clutch bearing should not stick out of the clutch drum, it should be inside the clutch drum or at least flush.

 

[wvlogger]

Howdy,
We sell those clips and washers in the 10's of thousands. Sorry you're having issues. I'll have our washers and clips checked for spec. Stihl has bunch of different sprocket washers that pretty much do the same thing. There are two different washers that are the most used. The most popular one by far is the one you're describing http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=QA+00009+581032&catID=, (OEM version) http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=QS+0000+958+1032&catID= and the other is a thinner stamped version. http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=QS+0000+958+1029&catID= The nice thing is the clip comes of easier when changing. The problem is the clip comes off easier when using. Like with anything we carry, we stand behind it. Let us know what you think we owe you, and we'll hook you up.
Regards
Gregg

Yall are awesome

 

[Adam_MA]

A little update.

Just gave taking the washer back off another try. I still can't get the thing to budge, I have a couple of other things I'm going to try before I try cutting it off.

After reading the other posts it seems like I may have been shipped the wrong bearings. Here are a couple of pictures I just took.

Here is the saw on it's side, showing how the bearing sticks out from the clutch drum. You can see how it pushes the washer closer to the end of the shaft.

Here is the package the bearings were shipped in.

Finally, since I ordered 2 bearings, I was able to measure the second one. Based on mtngun's post, this bearing is a bit too long. It measures 0.499"

Thanks everyone for your help so far, if you have any sugestions on how to get this damn clip out, I will gladly take the advice.

 

[mtngun]

Looks like someone in Taiwan put the wrong bearing in the right bag.

Here's my bag -- same part number.

The bearing that was in that bag.

I'm not sure what the acceptable tolerance is on that bearing, but your suspiciously long bearing could definitely be the root cause of the problem.

As for getting the e-clip off now, you'll just have to find a screwdriver that fits just right and pry it off, probably destroying the e-clip in the process, but that's OK as long as the shaft is unharmed.

I can't tell from your picture whether that's a Bailey's washer or a OEM on your 460. If it's OEM, ya, it'll be a son of a gun to remove.

Hope we have helped shed light on the problem. Please keep us posted.

 

[mtngun]

I blew up your pic. It sure doesn't look right.

 

[Frank Boyer]

Check and see if the chain brake is on. It seems to be easier to remove the E clip with the chain brake off.

 

[SawTroll]

I blew up your pic. It sure doesn't look right.

No, it doesn't look right!

The culprit surely is the bearing.

 

[Anthony_Va.]

I would'nt try to cut on it man. You could easily do alot more damage. Especially to the shaft itself.

Do you have a snap clip remover? You know, it looks like needle nose pliers with points at the end to spread those snap clips that have the two holes in them. If you have some, you can pry the open end of the clip apart with them sometimes.

If that won't work, just keep trying to pry it out with different things, and then send the bearing back for a replacment as that looks to be the problem. They never stick out past the drum like that.

I would just keep working with the clip. You might could take a cutting wheel on a dremel tool to cut into it enough to break it, but be careful with it.

 

[tlandrum]

i cant remember but if that bearing is a plastic cage use a heat source to get it hot enough to some what melt and push down on the washer to create room to remove the clip.

 

[mdavlee]

You might be able to bend the washer down a little on one side and pry on it and see if that makes it easier to get off.