Bar rail closing..

[woodswalker]

Howdy,

I have really been enjoying this site! a lot of great information and experience here! I've been running saws my whole life, but am very much the newbie at working on them! Like many here, I think there's something about working on my own saws that just does it for me!

My question is about dressing bar rails. I tend to flip my bars often, and am pretty anal about running sharp chains, so I dont really have a problem with the bar rails wearing unevenly. I have seen this, where one side is a 32nd of an inch higher than the other, and people wonder why their saws wont cut straight! My bars are wearing evenly, but it's the drive channel I'm having problems with..... I think they are wearing over time, eventually making the bar sloppy, the bar just doesnt cut right, chain starts going crooked, bar binds, bad words said...

I bought a bar rail closer from baileys, with the two bearings, and have tried it a couple of times, and pretty much want to throw it accross the shop every time. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I can't get it to do squat. Bar in a vise, I put it on with the bar between the bearings, tighten it down to a little resistance, roll it back and forth along the rails. Gradually I tighten it up to hopefully begin closing the rails... never seems to do didly, and jumps off half the time.. Am I doing something wrong, or is the thing just a piece of crap?

I actually bought that little file holder by pferd from baileys too. the one to dress the bar rails, put it on one bar and dulled the file it came with beyond use on the first bar I tried to dress??? What gives? bad file? bar rails I was trying to grind wound up grinding the file ! Ha Ha! Now I just eyeball it with a big ole coarse benchstone...

Asked my local stihl shop about bar dressing, which they do, and said they just grind the rails, dont close rails.

Saw a link in another thread about a bar shop you can send bars too, hate to box up bars and send them all the way accross the country if there's a better way to do it myself..

Read something on here with the search function about somebody who laid the bar flat on their workbench, put a 2x4 over the bar and beat it with a heavy hammer? I guess that would work, but with my luck, I would mash them shut, and not be able to get the drive links in the channel... Is there a trick to this?

Any body else have this problem or is it just me? any guidance you can lend? Thanks in advance!

 

[blsnelling]

I have both tools and they work fine. I have dressed several bars and the file is still sharp. That includes a 47" bar too. The rail closer can be finicky. It's all in how you set it up though. It works.

 

[woodswalker]

thanks Brad,

Any tips on setting the bar rail closer up?

Maybe I got a bad file with that thing..........cause it died very quickly...

 

[PES+]

Ummmm

Are you running GB CN40s by any chance?

 

[blsnelling]

Play with the height of the handle you pull on. Screw it in or out to change the height of the tool over the bar.

 

[woodswalker]

PES,

No, no GB bars... why?

Brad, I will try messing with the pull handle, and see if that keeps the tool on the bar any better.

three of my bars are ones I inherited with used saws, so it's hard to judge what was done with them before I adopted them. The are all stihl brand bars, one 18" x .063 on a 024 Super, a 20" x.050 on a 036 Pro and a 24" x .050. on a 038 Mag II.

The only bar I havent had trouble with is the 20" Woodsman Pro Cannon Bar I bought years ago from Baileys.

So, I only have had trouble with inherited bars. Go figure. We all know the way people treat saws..........

The 24 and 20 inch bars really dont look like they have been too badly abused...but they definately dont cut well, and bind up a lot. I can see the cutters rocking side to side alot, just sloppy rails I think. I just hate to scrap them if I can correct the problem.

Thanks a lot again for the replies!

 

[PES+]

Ok

Now I have a better picture

The Pferd tool is for regular dressing before the rails get too worn.

I bet you have all Stihl laminated bars and the rails are heat treated fairly hard and also resist re-shaping.

You are certain that all the bars are indeed .050 with the one exception?

East Coast Stihl was until fairly recently a .063 standard

The Stihl bars of all types are usually quite resistant to wearing the groove wider

Have the rails ground and trued at a local shop that does it on a regular basis if at all possible and keep the rails dressed regularly with the pferd.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

i have that pferd dresser and the first thing I did was chuck the file that came with it and cut a Nicholson bastard file to fit. The first bar I tried it on was a China Cheepie "tiger" bar that I bought from baileys and it was real hard. Wouldn't dress much at all. I've also used it on a Stihl laminated bar and a Windsor Speed Tip and it worked quite well with the new file. I've never tried to close the bar rails before.

Ian

 

[woodswalker]

Hey PES,

the bar I ruined the pferd dressing tool file on was a stihl laminated farm boss 18 inch bar. Maybe it was too hard... That sure would explain it! that bar was pretty much trashed when I got it anyway... I replaced it with another of the same, and it has been fine ever since.

I am pretty darn sure the two larger bars are .050, and not 063. I think they are rollomatic E bars.... with sprocket noses...

That cannon woodsman pro bar sure has been a good one! Wish I could afford to scrap those worn out stihl bars and replace with all woodsman pro's!

How do the GB bars compare in quality and durability to the stihls?

I was a little leary of getting my bars dressed at that local shop, when they looked at me kind of funny when I asked them if they closed the rails back true. As if they didnt know what I was talking about. makes me wonder how many bars they dress?

maybe it's just me, if other people arent having similar problems...

 

[PES+]

I'm gonna get a whoopin for this

But believe it or not even Stihl bars wear out

Cannons do too

I have never been happy with the bar closers like the ones currently available these days and use a brake or vise to close rails.

As far as the Tiger bars go.....I had similar experience with some Taiwan manufactured bars being too hard very much like was posted.

The Forester bars are very much like Oregon from which they are patterned with slightly better wear resistance.

The GBs work fine but the CN-40s can be hard to file true no matter who made the file.

Fit and finish is my only complaint about GB Titaniums



Personally I like the pro top GBs better because they were very much like the Stihl ES for less money but they also seemed more inconsistent in rail hardness and tip durability over the years than the Stihls.

 

[woodswalker]

PES,

Thanks for taking the time to help me with this!

when you close bar rails with a vise, do you just close one 6-8 inch section at a time, then move it down to the next section?

How do you maintain proper width between the rails? use a drive link or piece of chain for a feeler?

I'm probably making this harder than it has to be, I realize that!

 

[PES+]

Don't move it all at once

A little at a time and over lap.....if you know what I mean....the groove never wears evenly that way anyway

Get some spacer stock in the correct thickness and you can always re spread with a home made tool end to end

I know I am not explaining this clearly and will give it some thought as to how to describe how I do it

 

[woodswalker]

Awesome PES, I think I am following what you are saying!

Anybody else have a trick to close bar rails to origional size?

 

[HolmenTree]

Laminated bar rail grooves can't be tightened up properly. I myself have always run solid body sprocket nose tip bars and they are very easy to maintain. I tighten up my bar rails by hammering the bar on a foot long piece of heavy I-beam. All my bars are .050 so I just use a Oregon bar cleaner hook tool which I keep between the rails at the point I am hammering .The hook sticks out of the groove and I just pull on it as I go along hammering.Flip the bar over and hammer the other side the same way.Don't hit too hard .I use about a 2 1/2 lb.blacksmith hammer with a lite steady beat. Hit the rail area not onto the solid body.
Another nice thing about hammering is you can straighten out a bent bar.By beating in the center of the bar at the the area of the bend.Don't hammer near the rails.
Keep your rail edges from chipping [especially near the nose ] by maintaining the edges by filing the burring off with a flat file at a 45 degree angle.The chain does alot of wobbling and impacting at the tip joint area because the bar is .050 and the tip is .063.
Back in the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's I field tested prototype bars and chains for Oregon,Windsor and Stihl. Seen them all.

 

[joesawer]

If you drag the file backwards on the bar, it will dull very fast.
I don't realy like the roller bearing bar closer, it can be made to work but is a pita.
I use a piece of old bandsaw blade that is .055 thick for a spacer/guage in a .050 bar groove and just gently tap the rails with a hammer on an anvil.

 

[woodswalker]

Thanks a lot guys! Awesome advice! I think I need to find me a shim around .050 thick that I can check the gap with! I think I have a piece of bandsaw blade at the farm, but dont think it's thick enough.. I'll come up with somethng! Thanks a a lot!

 

[2many2count]

great suggestions guys,but any of you have access to to combination belt disc sander i have one in my wood shop put a 180 grt disc on . set it up disc sander for a true 90 degree angle .then made sure no burrs were on bar,knock then off with a file. then make light passes on sander until rails are square this has worked fine for me as long as you keep bar moving so you do not get flats spots on rails. after you are done you may have to dress bar with file to remove any burrs. i had bought several saws on ebay seeing conditions of bars thinking of having to replace them was going be expensive.maybe more than the saw i bought,i happened to give it a try it works very well.and shimming bar for the gauge it suppose run using hammer to close rail work very well too. be sure to close rails first before squaring up rails.

 

[galde]

laminated bar rail closing

Most of the laminated bar rail spreading I have seen was due to the rails wearing down ( usually just forward of the power head ) until the drive links rubbed ( and subsequently peened ) the softer middle layer of the bar. This causes the rails to spread. I clamp the bar in a vise and under good light I carefully cut a slot down the centerline of the peened metal with a Dremel with cut-off wheel. If the rails don't close by themselves, I clamp the bar in a large solid vise with the top edge of the vise aligned with the top edge of the middle layer (the bottom of the groove). If the rails are spread due to actual bending of the rails above the groove, then I clamp the bar in a heavy vise with a solid back-up plate extending above the rail on the back side. The top edge of the near-side vise jaw is aligned with the bottom of the groove. I then use a piece of flat stock that is a few inches wide as a wide punch that I tap with a hammer to bend the rail back into alignment. I repeat on the other side as needed.

 

[buzz sawyer]

great suggestions guys,but any of you have access to to combination belt disc sander i have one in my wood shop put a 180 grt disc on . set it up disc sander for a true 90 degree angle .then made sure no burrs were on bar,knock then off with a file. then make light passes on sander until rails are square this has worked fine for me as long as you keep bar moving so you do not get flats spots on rails. after you are done you may have to dress bar with file to remove any burrs. i had bought several saws on ebay seeing conditions of bars thinking of having to replace them was going be expensive.maybe more than the saw i bought,i happened to give it a try it works very well.and shimming bar for the gauge it suppose run using hammer to close rail work very well too. be sure to close rails first before squaring up rails.

Ditto on the sander 2many. I use a sanding disc on a table saw - easy to set real square. Close the the rails first with a hammer and anvil. Try the chain for fit and when OK, grind the rails flat. Just be careful not to grind the teeth on your sprocket tip and keep the bar in motion so you don't overheat one section.

 

[teacherman]

I have both tools and they work fine. I have dressed several bars and the file is still sharp. That includes a 47" bar too. The rail closer can be finicky. It's all in how you set it up though. It works.

You mean this one? I was thinking that two more just like it and I could make a B-17 propeller.......

I am thinking that this would go well on the newly muff-modded 192T, that it might give me a bit more reach than the 12" bar........ will update on teh progress of that retrofit......:monkey:

Oh BTW Very nice job on the bar Brad! Ya mon very cool!