Boline with Yosemity tie off...

[squagg]

Hi there all,

my first post on here and I'm wondering if anyone can help me. I recently started to use the Yosemity tie off on my bowlines whilst climbing. I found it in the the Tree Climbers Companion by Jeff Jepson (I think). I quuite like it as an alternative to using a figger of 8 stopper not or a scafold know as it is quite tidy and compact. Though I can apreciate it's not as secure as a fig 8 I've been told there has been alot of negative feed back about using it. As I regulary check all my knots whilt climbing should I be very concerned about how secure this mothod of tieing off a bowline is.

Discuss.

Cheers. Ben.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Where in the system are you using it Ben?

BTW welcome to the forum!

 

[beowulf343]

Jps has a good question-where are you using the bowline with the yosemite? The only time i use the bowline with a yosemite is to tie my rope snap onto my line. The yosemite feeds the tail back up the rope where i can use it to tie a quick double fisherman's as a backup. That is the only time i use a yosemite with my bowlines.

 

[squagg]

Cheers for the replys guys. I'm using the boline on the end of my climbing rope to attach it to my harness (sadle). That's why I'm asking really as it's pobably the most important knot in my climbing system so it's got to be right.

 

[joesawer]

IMO, the bowline got a bad rep from rock climbers because they were tying it in a very firm, stiff rope and it was very difficult to dress properly. (A blakes hitch or a taughtline hitch wont work on these ropes either) The yosimite bend resulted. But honestly, how many times has any one seen it fail with out a yosimite bend in an arbor rope. In my personal experience of many thousands of heavy loaded bowlines, I have never seen it fail. I have seen it creep some if not properly dressed.

 

[clearance]

In my personal experience of many thousands of heavy loaded bowlines, I have never seen it fail.

Same here, never. Welcome to the site Ben.

 

[Bermie]

Hi there!

I too use a bowline on my climbing rope to attach to the carabiner, I was shown the Yosemite tie off as a method to secure the tail of the knot. I used it for a while but I changed to a stopper in the tail after the Yosemite got some bad press.

A newish climber in the UK fell when they snapped back into the loop formed by the Yosemite and not the bowline loop during a changeover...obviously when they put weight on the system it pulled out, additional to this I believe they has also disconnected their second tie in to advance and had not properly loaded the changeover first...so its not just mistaking the loops that caused the fall but it was a major factor.
The HSE report identified that it is possible to mistake which part of the knot is the bowline loop when using the Yosemite tie off...

If you are going to use it, and it does give a nice streamlined finish for the tail of the bowline, be extra sure you snap in to the correct part of the knot!!!
Double check visually and always load your changeover BEFORE disconnecting your second tie in!!!!

 

[rbtree]

A bowline should not be used on an open carabiner as a termination knot, as it can shift, and possibly crossload the gate. Use knots that hold the carabiner in place, like an anchor bend or scaffold knot.

Of course a bowline is fine with an eyed snap or biner.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Use knots that hold the carabiner in place, like an anchor bend or scaffold knot.

I am fond of the scaffold/fisherman's for a terminal climbing hitch. I like how it comes apart when the carabiner is removed.

I use a jacked bo'lin with a follow-through for rigging since I found the scaffold loaded too tight to get some forged carabiners out easily. I use a wide, fixed bo'lin so the carabiner moves freely, and I can set it on the snugged up rope before cutting.

 

[masiman]

Hi there!

I too use a bowline on my climbing rope to attach to the carabiner, I was shown the Yosemite tie off as a method to secure the tail of the knot. I used it for a while but I changed to a stopper in the tail after the Yosemite got some bad press.

A newish climber in the UK fell when they snapped back into the loop formed by the Yosemite and not the bowline loop during a changeover...obviously when they put weight on the system it pulled out, additional to this I believe they has also disconnected their second tie in to advance and had not properly loaded the changeover first...so its not just mistaking the loops that caused the fall but it was a major factor.
The HSE report identified that it is possible to mistake which part of the knot is the bowline loop when using the Yosemite tie off...

This might be a report on that incident...

Arb News

 

[Adkpk]

Rbtree is correct of course. Knots that 'cinch down' on the carabiner so the rope can not move around are far superior. I perfer the anchor bend on a carabiner and the scaffold on an eyed biner or snap.

Thanks tree, that pic made it real easy. Clear and to the point. I use the fishermans/scaffold and tie it off the end with another fishermans. Do I need the fishermans tie off or is there a better way? Good thread, squagg.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Do I need the fishermans tie off or is there a better way?

Not sure what you mean, but a fishermans does not need a backup once it is set.

A followthrough on the bow'lin reduces creep, gets the tail out of your way, and helps with untieing by making the worry-point a a wider bend.

 

[Adkpk]

Not sure what you mean, but a fishermans does not need a backup once it is set.

A followthrough on the bow'lin reduces creep, gets the tail out of your way, and helps with untieing by making the worry-point a a wider bend.

That is what I was talking about. Thanks

 

[046]

add one extra wrap and you will have a triple fisherman. perhaps the most secure bend known. note lashing is there to tidy things up, not to give extra security

 

[Adkpk]

add one extra wrap and you will have a triple fisherman. perhaps the most secure bend known. note lashing is there to tidy things up, not to give extra security

That deserves a response. Sweet!

 

[046]

there's been documented bowline failures by UIAA.

bowline by nature will self loosen and requires a backup knot.
picture below shows only way, I would ever use bowline as a lifeline knot.

disclaimer: not responsible for anything. bad information can get you killed. don't ever use internet as your only source of information. find an experience instructor to learn from.

 

[rbtree]

Rbtree is correct of course. Knots that 'cinch down' on the carabiner so the rope can not move around are far superior. I perfer the anchor bend on a carabiner and the scaffold on an eyed biner or snap.

I think you wrote it wrong, Dan. A scaffold knot tightens up, and is hard to untie from an eyed biner or snap.

And, for rigging, I use an anchor bend, as a scaffold becomes hard to get off even a normal biner after repeated loading. I seldom back it up, as it never comes loose.
As well, as an anchor bend passes around the biner twice, thus spreading out the load a bit.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

add one extra wrap and you will have a triple fisherman. perhaps the most secure bend known.

that is a misnomer that's been going around for a few years, a double fisherman's has nothing to do with the bends in the individual knots of the hitch, but that it is to inverted knots used to make a loop for footlocking. It can also be used to join lines together, such as a line on lure.

1 wrap is an overhand, 2 is a fisherman's, 3 or more gets into the scaffold name and 13 is a traditional noose.

As for the whipping you have, it does add some safety, especially if one is using it on tress cord where you want a short tail and no creep on setting.

 

[046]

thanks for the clarification.... that's the problems with knots and why I post pictures.
many different names for the same knot.

yes I do realize whipping does indeed add security. added note to prevent someone from thinking whipping alone is enough. back to the fear of someone taking posted information and misinterpreting what was meant.

when it's your lifeline, there can be no mistakes!

that is a misnomer that's been going around for a few years, a double fisherman's has nothing to do with the bends in the individual knots of the hitch, but that it is to inverted knots used to make a loop for footlocking. It can also be used to join lines together, such as a line on lure.

1 wrap is an overhand, 2 is a fisherman's, 3 or more gets into the scaffold name and 13 is a traditional noose.

As for the whipping you have, it does add some safety, especially if one is using it on tress cord where you want a short tail and no creep on setting.

 

[moray]

yes I do realize whipping does indeed add security. added note to prevent someone from thinking whipping alone is enough. back to the fear of someone taking posted information and misinterpreting what was meant.

I think the whipping adds a LOT of security, and if done well, should be at least as secure than any secondary backup knot. Any actual force trying to pull the tail out of the whipping is always going to be a very small fraction of the force on the loaded side of the knot. If the whipping can supply that much force, then it is bullet-proof. But of course no one is going to go the whipping route except for a permanent installation.