Boline with Yosemity tie off...

[046]

thanks for your opinion... in this application whipping (optional) is indeed used to secure a permanent bend. triple fisherman is the only knot that I would use without a backup knot for a lifeline.

here's a picture showing a split tail properly terminated. triple fisherman naturally cinches down to meet current requirements. this is my solution for a compact termination knot without going with a splice.

note how triple fisherman is tied symmetrical and set to form a perfect knot. this is part of the quality control process one can use to determine if knot is tied properly.

disclaimer: not responsible for anything. bad information can get you killed. never depend only on information from internet. find a qualified instructor to learn from.

I think the whipping adds a LOT of security, and if done well, should be at least as secure than any secondary backup knot. Any actual force trying to pull the tail out of the whipping is always going to be a very small fraction of the force on the loaded side of the knot. If the whipping can supply that much force, then it is bullet-proof. But of course no one is going to go the whipping route except for a permanent installation.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think a DBY in our flexible half inch lines is sufficient for use for a fixed eye, but not as a shrinking eye application. In larger diameter and stiffer lines; we have more of a problem of it needing backup. i describe a Scaffold as Anchor to self to form eye; althought jsut like the differance between a Buntline or a Turn and 2 Half Hitches; it must be performed write.

DBY

Easy

Krab-Bowline Caution

 

[joesawer]

i think a DBY in our flexible half inch lines is sufficient for use for a fixed eye, but not as a shrinking eye application. In larger diameter and stiffer lines; we have more of a problem of it needing backup. i describe a Scaffold as Anchor to self to form eye; althought jsut like the differance between a Buntline or a Turn and 2 Half Hitches; it must be performed write.

DBY

Krab-Bowline Caution

+1 all knots, bends and hitchs must be tied, dressed and set properly.

 

[Bermie]

different strokes?

Ok, forgive me if I sound dim, so when you all do a changeover, do you toss your line with the biner attached or unsnap your knot and toss it?
If you tie your line with a fisherman's or such like how do you not inadvertently pull it out when you pull your line back down to you to set another TIP? Or do you retie your knot every time?

I know a fishermans is more secure on the biner and have used it from time to time (and I have had it start to work out when pulling it over for a changeover) but I was taught to tie a bowline with a stopper, with both split tail and line termination in the same carabiner, it has never crossloaded. I tie it once (with a very small loop) and it's in for the whole job.

I'm not saying what I do is definitely right, and I can be persuaded to change I just want to hear what the prevailing wisdom and practice on your side is.
I do like the idea of whipping the tail of a fishermans, that would keep it secure when pulling back for sure.

BTW- have you ever tried whipping with a series of half hitches instead of just wrapping round and round? Each wrap then gets cinched down very tight and leads to an extremely secure whip. We did this on all our haliyards on our boat (all 10 of them, double braid eye splices) always under extreme loading and they never slipped or unravelled

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I use a fishermans, and will either throw the carabiner, or untie and toss depending on the probability of the knot getting hung up in a tight union.

 

[Adkpk]

I use a fishermans but never pulled my rope threw a crotch. I always use a cambium saver. Don't want to make my rope dirtier than is and don't want to make more work for myself due to friction.

 

[BobEMoto]

that is a misnomer that's been going around for a few years, a double fisherman's has nothing to do with the bends in the individual knots of the hitch, but that it is to inverted knots used to make a loop for footlocking. It can also be used to join lines together, such as a line on lure.

1 wrap is an overhand, 2 is a fisherman's, 3 or more gets into the scaffold name and 13 is a traditional noose.

Grog talks about a triple fisherman: http://www.animatedknots.com/double...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
And it's the same as a scaffold.
Knots end up with a lot of different names depending on background.

"Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills" shows the single and double fisherman's bend. It's an easy step to call another wrap a triple.

A hangman's knot is slightly different: http://www.realknots.com/knots/noose.htm

 

[RedlineIt]

Bermie,

I like the Double Fishermans Loop for the fact that the tail is parallel to the rope and I've never seen a properly tied and dressed DFL creep. Cinch the loop tight to the 'biner, it's not going anywhere. No gaps, no openings, easy to toss up with ' biner on.

Sometimes I'll need to climb a tree that has had a "view window" cut in it. If I can lanyard in and advance my climb line with a pole saw, the 'biner still stays on. Only time the 'biner comes off is if I have to advance with a throw line, or if 150' is not enough to rappell out and I need to reset the TIP on the way down.

I'm with you, toss it ahead with the 'biner on.

RedlineIt

 

[Bermie]

My split tail and the end of my rope are on the same biner, I unclip the end to changeover, that's why I have not used the fishermans.
I might try a fisherman's with a whipped end...

So did all this posting give squagg the information he needed? I kind of hijacked the thread!!!

 

[gasman]

Buntline hitch?

I was curious if anyone uses a buntline to attach to a carabiner? It is in the TCC, but I don't see it mentioned much in discussions.

It is awfully easy to untie which could be nice, but I'd be scared to use it without any further knowledge of peoples experience with it.

Sorry if this is off topic.

 

[moray]

I was curious if anyone uses a buntline to attach to a carabiner? It is in the TCC, but I don't see it mentioned much in discussions.

I think it makes a difference whether you are using a split tail or not. If so, then the termination knot has to hold all by itself, and you'd better choose something really secure, like the double fisherman's. If not, then the friction knot backs up the termination knot, and the latter can slip all it wants without endangering the climber.

 

[BobEMoto]

So did all this posting give squagg the information he needed? I kind of hijacked the thread!!!

The Bowine with Yosemite finish is mentioned in the Mountaineering book as a good choice for a top-roping tie-in. Figure 8 is preferred for tieing to saddle.

 

[RedlineIt]

I was curious if anyone uses a buntline to attach to a carabiner? It is in the TCC, but I don't see it mentioned much in discussions.

Gasman,

I used to, it is reliable termination, never seen one of mine, properly set and dressed, creep even the tiniest bit.

Anything you doubt, tie it with a longish tail, and throw a stopper knot in it. Dress and set it, dump your full body weight on it, then take a visual note of how much tail is there between your knot and your stopper. Do your climb.

Climb done?, All good?, Rappell out and compare your memory of your tail to what you see now. Properly tied, dressed and set, a buntline will show no creep and you now have utter confidence in it.

So, why did I used to climb attached with the buntline, and now I don't?

The answer is also in your Tree Climbers Companion Manual. I was attracted by the fact that it was the termination that used up the least amount of rope, and that seemed to be enough for me. But it leaves a fiddly little bit sticking out at 90 degrees from the termination, creating just one more bit of nonsense that can delay me here or there when advancing my rope.

The Double Fisherman's Loop puts the tail parallel to my rope, creep factor is just as bombproof, and the seven extra inches of rope it takes over the buntline are worth it.

Off topic, No: Dead on.

I once climbed for an outfit that had, as policy, a Bowline as the only approved tie-in. Screwballooble that! There are better ways, and sometimes a knowlegable employee can shine some light.



RedlineIt

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think a Scaffold/fisherperson's whatever knot is better than a Buntline several ways. It would be a more secure model; in that the Bitters traveled up the Standing Part and in the direction of it's pull. So that any traction from the Standing Part on the Bitters would tend to tighten more securely the lacing.

Also, i think especially as we go to 3 Turns (a double Round Turn) with the Scaffold; it firms and stabilizes the most common failure point more. Making the taper from stretched thinning and bend the same at pre and post areas of the critical area; but giving more distance to make these modifications in the forces. So, thereby; they have less impact to the stability and strength of the lacing.

Besides that i think the tail coming out sideways on a Buntline, isn't as 'clean'/ streamlined a device to operate with. Now, that and the security concern would be less of issue, when the Bitters goes to also be the friction 'tail' for the hitch. But the strength design would still be not as good in my mind.

 

[squagg]

Thanks for all the replys guys, there's quite a bit there for me to think about. I was taught climbing at Merrist Wood where they teach you to use both ends of your rope and to tie off with a bowline with a figger 8 stopper, one of my lecturers did show me how to use a scafold knot but surgested that I only use it when I have my top anchor point in place as, as some of you have said it holds the karabine tight and makes change overs difficult. I was always taught not to throw karabinas on change overs too as they tend to hurt if they whip round a branch and smack you in the teeth. I've been using the Yosemite tie off for a couple of weeks now and have really only found one problem with it. As the tail points back along the lenght of my line it does tend to get stuck on tight croches more. I did have a spliced eye on my rope that solved this until I knicked if while taking down a conifer, oops.

 

[Bermie]

Hey Squagg, I went there too!
I have modified a few things they taught us, either from other courses or from my own research or hanging out here. They get you started well on the right track though!
You nicked your spliced eye? That must have been close!

 

[squagg]

Hey Squagg, I went there too!
I have modified a few things they taught us, either from other courses or from my own research or hanging out here. They get you started well on the right track though!
You nicked your spliced eye? That must have been close!

Alright Bermie,

I think that Merrist Woods climbing system is a great way to start though like you my system does look very different know. I think the M/W system works well bacuse it's quite simple and dare I say it quite fairly fool proof. There are some great lectures there who will show you more advanced tricks if you show an interest. I only did the Ten Week Tree Surgey cours but I really feel that I learnt alot. I'm currently thinking about changing my friction hitch from a prussik. The two knots I'm looking at are the Swaybish (spelling?!) and the Distal, though I think that is a whole new thread entirly.

 

[Bermie]

We can carry on our own thread...
I use a Blakes for a friction hitch and the distel on my lanyard, I never liked a prussik, two wraps was not enough and three was too many! I am going to try a martin or distel on my main line real soon, one guy here has a lockjack, might convince him to let me try it...
I agree with you that they offer a good solid foundation for arb work, it gets you started then it's up to you to take it further and keep improving, always lots more to learn!
I was a 10 weeker in '05, but I went with NPTC's already, I needed the extra depth in theory and practical that you don't get on a short course, also I had done my NCH there way back in the 80's!!! It was time to update!

Safe climbing

 

[Chinooker]

Great Thread

As a 20+ year mountaineer it is great to see such an intelligent discussion on knots and ropes. My ropes have seen use in many environments just not trees - may have to start another hobby

As for the bowline, it has been my preferred end of line tie in to my harness for many years. It has caught countless falls, held for extended hanging belays and never come close to releasing. I teach both the fig 8 retrace to starting climbers then add the bowline as they season. The only modification to the knot is that I use a double bowline with an overhand safety on the top side.

Thanks again for the great discussion.
J