brakes? we don't need brakes...
- Thread starter Patrick62
- Start date
Help Support Arborist Forum:
I did a full rebuild of the hydrovac booster on a '52 GMC 3-ton some years ago when I restored the truck--just had to, it was a truck my Dad bought brand new as his second gravel truck, took the train from SW BC to the Oshawa assembly plant in Ontario to pick it up and drove it back, complete with a new '52 Pontiac on the back. When fully restored, he got to ride in it in a May Day parade before he died. I wanted him to drive it but he wouldn't.
The hydrovac was neither difficult nor expensive to repair, and all the parts were available. It was not made by GM, was one they obtained and put on. And as I recall the diaphragm was still useable, it was small parts that needed replacing. I developed a property with that truck and it held just fine with 24,000 lbs on my 20% driveway, hauling gravel. It's been a few years, but somehow $80 for all the parts sounds familiar, and I think that included a new diaphragm.
FWIW, I certainly can't see anything wrong with adding something new to the firewall, a more modern booster system. The only reason they used the hydrovac in my opinion is that nobody made a vacuum booster for firewall mounting that was big enough, and they may not have had enough room in the engine compartment to mount one. You need some help with hydraulic pressure beyond what the old foot, pedal and master cylinder could develop, that's all. Get it how you can, if you have the mechanical ability. If not, don't kill anybody.
The hydrovac was neither difficult nor expensive to repair, and all the parts were available. It was not made by GM, was one they obtained and put on. And as I recall the diaphragm was still useable, it was small parts that needed replacing. I developed a property with that truck and it held just fine with 24,000 lbs on my 20% driveway, hauling gravel. It's been a few years, but somehow $80 for all the parts sounds familiar, and I think that included a new diaphragm.
FWIW, I certainly can't see anything wrong with adding something new to the firewall, a more modern booster system. The only reason they used the hydrovac in my opinion is that nobody made a vacuum booster for firewall mounting that was big enough, and they may not have had enough room in the engine compartment to mount one. You need some help with hydraulic pressure beyond what the old foot, pedal and master cylinder could develop, that's all. Get it how you can, if you have the mechanical ability. If not, don't kill anybody.
If you got any big truck salvage yards around you'll be able to get a real nice newer system for peanuts, just fab it onto your truck.
This is what happens when "we don't need brakes" happens in real life. He went up the driveway which is steep and it stalled, came down it backwards at a pretty good clip, cranked the wheel to avoid going across the road and through my garage! Fortunately there is a bridge out a half mile down the road so traffic is pretty light and I'm out in the country. I was in the driveway working on my Ford. That is the corner of my garage in the pic.
Amateur! I once drove 60 miles home from the river with no brakes, without incident. With a manual transmission of course.
Glad nobody was hurt! I'm wondering how this happens on a truck with air brakes? When the resevoir runs out the brakes lock up.
Depends if the have piggy back chambers or not. Lots of old school guys would remove the front chambers and swap out auto adjust slck adjusters for manual slack adjusters. Also depends on the over all repair of the brake system.
I agree with mal-adjusted brakes; brakes should hold a legally-loaded truck on any grade it encounters.
The Mack showing everyone its undercarriage has air brakes, no way to have a tandem axle arrangement without them. Brake adjustment is crucial; their ability to hold works best when perfectly/properly adjusted.
I'm not making anything up by saying that brakes--all of them--should be adjusted as part of the pre-trip inspection every single day, driving a logging truck for years shows one the wisdom of doing that. If you adjust brakes every single day, you gain several advantages:
1. They're always adjusted to lock-up and backed of 1/3 turn before you start the day. Every trip down the logging road points out just how much better the brakes work when adjusted daily; it does make a difference you can feel. I have sometimes adjusted them more than once a day.
2. It keeps the slack adjusters freed up and adjustable, the lock rings never get seized around the adjuster bolt. Each adjuster takes about 30 seconds if done daily; on 6 axles that's only 6 minutes.
3. It gets you close to that slot in the backing plate every day with a penlight, and completely conversant with the wear-limit mark on the brake shoe linings; you'll never wear to the point of a cam-over.
4. You see all the brake hoses/lines every day, you can see when something is going to wear out a month in advance.
5. One crucial part of the pre-trip is to make a full brake application with engine off, to hear any leaks and see if any lines or diaphragms will blow under maximum system pressure. To have it happen in the shop before you even back out is just so much better than when someone's child runs out in front of you chasing a ball. I even practise this on my car and pickup now, after considering the wisdom of it learned from Class 8 trucks.
6. Auto or manual slack adjusters presents little practical difference. My preference is manual for the above reasons; you get personal with your brakes every single day, autos make you lazy.
Whether the driver of that gravel truck got away with it or not is none of my business. But he really should not have, it should not have happened.
I recommend that anyone on this site hauling heavy loads learn how to do the calculation of how many horsepower is being dissipated by the braking system in a fully-loaded maximum-performance stop of a truck. You will get enough of a shock if you do, that you will spend a lot less time inspecting your engine and a lot more inspecting your brakes.
There are added complications on a gravel truck like that too; for example S-cam bushings. They also wear and reduce braking efficiency; they've got to be kept up with.
I admit I wouldn't understand anyone removing spring-brake chambers from an air-brake system; it makes no sense. I'm betting no 'old school' driver would admit to doing something so stupid and illegal. In addition they would have to be more 'old school' than I am, and if so might consider giving up the idea of driving. It's now just over a decade since I hauled my last 105,000 lb log load, and my credibility is that I made it to retirement without an accident, no truck on its side. A major contributor to that was being anal about brake adjustment, and even today I practise the same attitude with pickup and trailer brakes when hauling my farm tractors around.
Looking after brakes is neither difficult nor rocket science; please practise it as if your life depended on it--not like that Mack driver.
The Mack showing everyone its undercarriage has air brakes, no way to have a tandem axle arrangement without them. Brake adjustment is crucial; their ability to hold works best when perfectly/properly adjusted.
I'm not making anything up by saying that brakes--all of them--should be adjusted as part of the pre-trip inspection every single day, driving a logging truck for years shows one the wisdom of doing that. If you adjust brakes every single day, you gain several advantages:
1. They're always adjusted to lock-up and backed of 1/3 turn before you start the day. Every trip down the logging road points out just how much better the brakes work when adjusted daily; it does make a difference you can feel. I have sometimes adjusted them more than once a day.
2. It keeps the slack adjusters freed up and adjustable, the lock rings never get seized around the adjuster bolt. Each adjuster takes about 30 seconds if done daily; on 6 axles that's only 6 minutes.
3. It gets you close to that slot in the backing plate every day with a penlight, and completely conversant with the wear-limit mark on the brake shoe linings; you'll never wear to the point of a cam-over.
4. You see all the brake hoses/lines every day, you can see when something is going to wear out a month in advance.
5. One crucial part of the pre-trip is to make a full brake application with engine off, to hear any leaks and see if any lines or diaphragms will blow under maximum system pressure. To have it happen in the shop before you even back out is just so much better than when someone's child runs out in front of you chasing a ball. I even practise this on my car and pickup now, after considering the wisdom of it learned from Class 8 trucks.
6. Auto or manual slack adjusters presents little practical difference. My preference is manual for the above reasons; you get personal with your brakes every single day, autos make you lazy.
Whether the driver of that gravel truck got away with it or not is none of my business. But he really should not have, it should not have happened.
I recommend that anyone on this site hauling heavy loads learn how to do the calculation of how many horsepower is being dissipated by the braking system in a fully-loaded maximum-performance stop of a truck. You will get enough of a shock if you do, that you will spend a lot less time inspecting your engine and a lot more inspecting your brakes.
There are added complications on a gravel truck like that too; for example S-cam bushings. They also wear and reduce braking efficiency; they've got to be kept up with.
I admit I wouldn't understand anyone removing spring-brake chambers from an air-brake system; it makes no sense. I'm betting no 'old school' driver would admit to doing something so stupid and illegal. In addition they would have to be more 'old school' than I am, and if so might consider giving up the idea of driving. It's now just over a decade since I hauled my last 105,000 lb log load, and my credibility is that I made it to retirement without an accident, no truck on its side. A major contributor to that was being anal about brake adjustment, and even today I practise the same attitude with pickup and trailer brakes when hauling my farm tractors around.
Looking after brakes is neither difficult nor rocket science; please practise it as if your life depended on it--not like that Mack driver.
Maybe checking for adjustment, but adjusting brakes daily means your auto adjusters arnt working. If your auto adjusters arnt working they need replaced. If you don't have auto adjusters or like a cave man decided to remove them in favor of manual adjusters your either driving a very old truck or shouldn't be allowed to work on a truck.
Then there is also the legal side of things....
Federal law mandated all heavy trucks and tractors had to have auto adjusters starting in 1994 and all trailers in 1995. this is plainly listed under CFR 393.53 (b) replacing them with manual adjusters is against the law.
A standard 18 wheeler brake system also has roughly 1200 hp worth of brakes, not counting engine braking effect, which will contribute roughly half the rated engine hp and can be added to the over all braking effect.
At 80k lbs driving 65 mph the truck should stop in roughly 4 seconds or the equivalent of 550 feeton optimal conditions. This assumes a reasonably modern truck, in good repair, although I will admit the calculations I used did a lot of assuming for coefficients of friction from road surface, tire weight distribution, tire compound ect.
Then there is also the legal side of things....
Federal law mandated all heavy trucks and tractors had to have auto adjusters starting in 1994 and all trailers in 1995. this is plainly listed under CFR 393.53 (b) replacing them with manual adjusters is against the law.
A standard 18 wheeler brake system also has roughly 1200 hp worth of brakes, not counting engine braking effect, which will contribute roughly half the rated engine hp and can be added to the over all braking effect.
At 80k lbs driving 65 mph the truck should stop in roughly 4 seconds or the equivalent of 550 feeton optimal conditions. This assumes a reasonably modern truck, in good repair, although I will admit the calculations I used did a lot of assuming for coefficients of friction from road surface, tire weight distribution, tire compound ect.
My uncle retired from the state police several years ago. He had worked his way up through the DOT side of things before moving into a teaching roll at the academy, and then on to some higher level things. After retirement he started a consulting business for trucking companies. His sales approach is that he knows exactly what mistakes the officers make because they made the same mistakes when they were in his class.
He recently shared a story with me where he was contracted to inspect a fleet that primarily shipped fuel. Most of the tractors and trailers he inspected only had functioning brakes on one axle (tractor and trailer combined). He wrote up his findings, and made his recommendations to the owner who's response was "We get paid to deliver fuel, not work on trucks." Fast forward a year and the company calls him and asks if he would be a professional witness for them in a court case where one of their trucks had failed to stop resulting in an accident. I don't recall if there was a fatality or not. He was straight forward with the owner and told him that he'd be happy to testify, but it would be in the companies best interest to settle as fast as they could because his testimony would align with the report that he had provided the company, and if any officer of the court ever got their hands on that report, the owner would most certainly loose the company, and would most likely see jail time. According to my uncle, this particular client was not all that unique in how they chose to run their organization. They just happened to be one of the shining examples of how such a strategy can go wrong.
He recently shared a story with me where he was contracted to inspect a fleet that primarily shipped fuel. Most of the tractors and trailers he inspected only had functioning brakes on one axle (tractor and trailer combined). He wrote up his findings, and made his recommendations to the owner who's response was "We get paid to deliver fuel, not work on trucks." Fast forward a year and the company calls him and asks if he would be a professional witness for them in a court case where one of their trucks had failed to stop resulting in an accident. I don't recall if there was a fatality or not. He was straight forward with the owner and told him that he'd be happy to testify, but it would be in the companies best interest to settle as fast as they could because his testimony would align with the report that he had provided the company, and if any officer of the court ever got their hands on that report, the owner would most certainly loose the company, and would most likely see jail time. According to my uncle, this particular client was not all that unique in how they chose to run their organization. They just happened to be one of the shining examples of how such a strategy can go wrong.
Sean, you're right of course in a modern era. To understand my post above you have to realize I started hauling logs with a '72 Kenworth with a buzzin' duzzin'. I ended driving a '95 (built '94) Western Star, still in perfect mechanical shape in 2012. All manual adjusters, all 6 axles. My air brake course was a LONG time ago.
I read up on the regulations in both the US and Canada and the reasons for them; far too many trucks were on the road with poorly adjusted brakes. It was easier to make the brakes idiot-proof than to weed out all the idiots, hence the mandatory auto-adjusters by '95. Sad, isn't it.
But then from field's post, there's the hard cold facts; it was absolutely necessary by his uncle's experience due to irresponsible companies and lazy drivers.
I still stand my ground at least philosophically if not practically; if you have manual adjusters, and are under there every day setting them and looking at everything else, you will be far more up-front-and-personal with your braking system than simply glancing under and looking at the tattle-tales on the push-rods will tell you. Where is the incentive to look through the slot and see how thick your linings are?
Now this site has probably far more visitors towing trailers with electric brakes than are holders of CDL's. Their adjustment is not automatic, so what percentage of them do you think are on the road today with properly-adjusted brakes?
I read up on the regulations in both the US and Canada and the reasons for them; far too many trucks were on the road with poorly adjusted brakes. It was easier to make the brakes idiot-proof than to weed out all the idiots, hence the mandatory auto-adjusters by '95. Sad, isn't it.
But then from field's post, there's the hard cold facts; it was absolutely necessary by his uncle's experience due to irresponsible companies and lazy drivers.
I still stand my ground at least philosophically if not practically; if you have manual adjusters, and are under there every day setting them and looking at everything else, you will be far more up-front-and-personal with your braking system than simply glancing under and looking at the tattle-tales on the push-rods will tell you. Where is the incentive to look through the slot and see how thick your linings are?
Now this site has probably far more visitors towing trailers with electric brakes than are holders of CDL's. Their adjustment is not automatic, so what percentage of them do you think are on the road today with properly-adjusted brakes?
I agree for the most part, people are lazy. Then you have the truck drivers and the pedal pushers. When I got my cdl, I was going over the pre trip inspection when I took my test, popped the hood to check fluids. (Took it in the local vo-tech training truck and trailer, didn't know anyone that I could borrow their truck for the test.) The tester asked me why I was opening the hood? Said I never drove the truck, so I want to check the fluids and look over the fan belts ect. He looked at me like I was an idiot, and said if there's nothing under it, everything is still in it. No puddles and no parts means it's still good. Guy was a truck driver before he became an instructor and tester. Didn't know anything about the truck other then where to put fuel in it and how to make it move. Lots of guys like that.
the few trucks I've gotten to drive I can't honestly say I did more then check the tattle tails were even per axles and within the adjusters range.
Then again, up until not so long ago we had bi-anual inspections and dot inspections so everything got checked at least 3 times a year. My name was on the inspection stickers so everything had to be right and working. Trucks got greased at inspection, and if they were close to oil change it got done at that time too, brakes u-joints whatever it needed. I needed to depend on the trucks and sure didn't want any dot fines. Now we have annual and dot inspection. So still twice a year. I've always felt the guy driving the truck should know it best and if something was off, check it out, or stop and get it looked at.
Electric brakes... yeah, I have auto adjusting brakes on both my trailers. It's a God send as far as I'm concerned. You could always tell when it was getting time to adjust the old brakes, wanst hard just sucked to do. Didn't trust them at first, but I have a lot of miles on my first set, and they work great. Take the wheels and drums off once a year (need to for inspection anyway) check everything out, lube the adjusting mechanism, pack some new grease in the wheel bearings, inspect the seal for damage. If they look good and everything works it goes back together, if anything is questionable it gets fixed. I just don't play games with brakes.
But yeah, I agree I'd bet 95% of people don't even know manual adjusting electric brakes need service at maximum every 2k miles. Really before every trip. Another thing no one checks is if their brake away box works/battery is good. They really only last so long, and that isn't really long. I replace the batteries every 3 years.
Lots of people over look a lot, but at the end of the day the driver is responsible for that truck and load.
Shoot, with the advent of the Dexter EZ lube axle I doubt most hubs ever get pulled apart until there is a failure anymore.....
There was a thread on here recently someone looking for bearing buddies for 8k lb axles. Ummm, yeah. Those are for boats with surge brakes. I got scolded for telling him how I felt about them
There was a thread on here recently someone looking for bearing buddies for 8k lb axles. Ummm, yeah. Those are for boats with surge brakes. I got scolded for telling him how I felt about them
quite a thread I started here, eh?
Driving without brakes...
I got a true story a couple years ago from Mark.
Mechanic and school bus driver....
School bus!!! (this can't be good)
Anyway, mark told me that years ago (1970's?) he was coming back over Monarch pass with a school bus (loaded with kids). I can't make this up... and the brakes went out. no cell phones back then. Decision time. Mark is a good driver, and knew what to expect. how to do this.
He drove that bus all the way back with little to NONE for brakes!!!
He did NOT inform the occupants that there was a problem. no sense getting everyone involved.
Just drive it slow, stay in the correct gear.
These are the same guys who (back in the day) built some pretty wild engines in the buses...
I heard the stories of they coming back across southpark (wide open, straight 2 lane highway) at well over 80 mph. In a bus. They (the kids) could see the speedometer... it was fine.
This was the 70's, people had a different idea of "safe" back then.
This is the same bunch, who in all sincerity challenged my dodge van to a quarter mile against a school bus. I declined, I had not a clue what Wendel had done to that bus, but I was certain that it would move.
Driving without brakes...
I got a true story a couple years ago from Mark.
Mechanic and school bus driver....
School bus!!! (this can't be good)
Anyway, mark told me that years ago (1970's?) he was coming back over Monarch pass with a school bus (loaded with kids). I can't make this up... and the brakes went out. no cell phones back then. Decision time. Mark is a good driver, and knew what to expect. how to do this.
He drove that bus all the way back with little to NONE for brakes!!!
He did NOT inform the occupants that there was a problem. no sense getting everyone involved.
Just drive it slow, stay in the correct gear.
These are the same guys who (back in the day) built some pretty wild engines in the buses...
I heard the stories of they coming back across southpark (wide open, straight 2 lane highway) at well over 80 mph. In a bus. They (the kids) could see the speedometer... it was fine.
This was the 70's, people had a different idea of "safe" back then.
This is the same bunch, who in all sincerity challenged my dodge van to a quarter mile against a school bus. I declined, I had not a clue what Wendel had done to that bus, but I was certain that it would move.
That happened to our church bus a few years ago while hauling a group of high school kids down to visit a college in Tennessee. The church hadn't had the bus long, and it had passed all the inspections. Break line gave out going down hill, ran a red light, struck a car, killed 2 people in the car, seriously injured several people on the bus. I would hope that "Mark" has long since grown up, but I would encourage everyone who meets someone like him to plant your foot in his arse and see if you can dislodge his head from it....
cumminstinkerer
addicted to making my boiler run clean
That would be a wild ride for sure, either direction over monarch is a tough road, I watched a driver bring a D9H with cab ripper, and blade down the east slope once, he was in front of me, he was one skilled driver for sure, I would not tackle that, maybe without blade and ripper but even that would only lighten by about 20-25K
Once in a while we would get a farm truck in with the brakes acting up and the pressure bleeder was a God Sent cure for a contrary brake system.
He knew what he was doing
He knew the risks
This was 40 some years ago. A lot less traffic then. Probably would not be done today.
He knew what could have happened. I think he said there was a little on one axle, certainly not enough to feel confident with, and there was no certainty that would not fail!
I would have been fairly confident if I had been with him. You get a feel for people, and their ability. Stupid, yes. But…. What ya gonna do?
No phones. It would have taken hours to get another bus up there. And back then…. Who had a tow truck capable of doing a bus around here??
The is why he “did it that way”
He knew the risks
This was 40 some years ago. A lot less traffic then. Probably would not be done today.
He knew what could have happened. I think he said there was a little on one axle, certainly not enough to feel confident with, and there was no certainty that would not fail!
I would have been fairly confident if I had been with him. You get a feel for people, and their ability. Stupid, yes. But…. What ya gonna do?
No phones. It would have taken hours to get another bus up there. And back then…. Who had a tow truck capable of doing a bus around here??
The is why he “did it that way”
The 'brake line going out going downhill' is exactly the point I was trying to make about doing a bend-the-pedal brake application as part of the pre-trip, whether on a logging truck, school bus, or Toyota Prius. If there's a weak point--right in the garage is the best place for me to find out about it. You'll never go through a red light at the bottom of a hill, hit a car and kill two people if the weak brake line burst in the shop that morning before you even started out.
If this thread gets one more person to take his/her brakes more seriously, it's done its job. If it gets everyone to take their brakes more seriously--major bonus.
Haven't hauled a D9H, but have a D8K many times; blade, cab and winch. It's a good lump back there, and this was on logging roads, not paved highways. 'The grades are different'--as is the road width!
If this thread gets one more person to take his/her brakes more seriously, it's done its job. If it gets everyone to take their brakes more seriously--major bonus.
Haven't hauled a D9H, but have a D8K many times; blade, cab and winch. It's a good lump back there, and this was on logging roads, not paved highways. 'The grades are different'--as is the road width!
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
Poulan Wild Thing (42cc) vs Husqvarna 346 (45cc) What's the difference?- Latest: sean donato
-
-
Scrounging Firewood (and other stuff)
- Latest: sean donato
-
-
Tutorial: make your own raker depth gauge supported by software tool- Latest: Herbert Schwarz
-
