Buy New Felling Saw ? 20acre Hardwood Stand, 20 Acre Pine- 50 year old

[bigv]

Background:
I had a Stihl 044 and a Pro Mac 700- those two I used for fairly serious felling. Pro Mac died. The Stihl 044 was used when I bought it from a junkyard, put a honed used jug on it, and I have now promptly blown it apart. It was about 17 years ago when I got it from the junkyard, so I can't complain.

I took the 044 apart and I found a hairline crack in the jug, and the cases are busted.

Why Would I need a Felling Saw and What Size Trees Will I be Working With ?
My dad put some property in a USFS land program, and they finally made him do a land use and management plan for that land. He's in his mid-late 60's and he cannot do what is necessary to make the plan a reality, so it has fallen to me to either make the plan a reality or pay shitload of back taxes.

The bottom line is that there is a 20 acre section of pine and a 20 acre section of hard woods(Oak mostly, some Chinese chestnut, many Sourwoods, but the Sourwood trees will not be harvested).

The pine trees are white pine and lob-lolly.

The stands of trees are from 1958-1964 plantings. This is the southern Appalachian Mountains along a hillside, the trees were not planted on a plan, they were not professionally spaced, they are overcrowded, so while they are good size trees, they are not what a 50 year old tree would be if spacing had been observed, if competition had been controlled, and etc...

I have to harvest the pine and a good deal of the non-Sourwood trees to make the "G" happy.

My chainsaws I use for trimming are: Stihl 009L, MS 250, 025. For Firewood: Stihl 029S- I also use a Homelite Super XL Auto(blue 1960's-1970's), Homelite XL-102, and a Homelite Super XL.

I'd like to get a newer saw like another 044 or an 056. I like Stihls but from the single Husqvarna 0650 I've owned, I think Husqvarnas are great.

I thought about blowing $600 and buying a brand new Stihl or Husqvarna, but I cannot get over (a) spending $600 and (b) spending $600 on something with a carburetor that cannot be adjusted.

Several friends have told me that I should find another 044 or 056 or 066 for $200-$300 on Craigslist(probably hot) and do what is neccessary to keep it in running order.

So long as I start the harvest before April 2014, I am ok. I do not have a time I have to be complete by.

My father thinks I am nuts to not use the low hour Homelites: XL-102, the Super XL, SXLAO.

I don't mind the weight, they cut well, power is ok, but the reality is what I've learned trying to fix the C-51 Homelite. You cannot get important parts for these saws anymore.

I'm wondering if I should get a newer saw, how new a saw I should get, and what brand/model.

 

[bryanr2]

what size diameter are most of the trees? what size bar would you like to run? Cutting soft pine isn't as demanding but if your cutting 50 year old hardwood I'd think I'd want 70cc or up. 044 sounds good. or a 372xp/365. Also check out the Dolmar 6400, 7900 and the Makita 6401 which is the blue variant of the Dolmar 6400. It can be upgraded to 79cc/ 7900 with a PC change. The Makita you can pick up from Baileys (online sponsor) for $600 +- or you can go to local Home Depot with tool rental- they cut their rental saws loose usually in the 2-300 range with a lot of life left in them. I wouldn't spend 2-300 on a heavily used saw (which is usually the condition at that range) and have to potentially put more money in it. If that property is as you say and overgrown- your gonna have a massive project on your hands. I'd buy the very nicest saw I could buy used or buy new.

 

[angelo c]

As a certain unwise man once said.... "If you like your SAW you can keep it"..."period"...

Throw whats left of your 044 in a box, ship it to the angry chimp in Tenn. and ask him to "make it able to leap tall buildings ...in a single bound". I bet he could do it for about the same money you would spend on a new "stock" whatever you can find locally.

Or....sell the 044 parts and call terry landrum about selling you a new ported johnsered "wicked work saw".
Both are gentlemen that will stand behind their work.

 

[dingeryote]

As a certain unwise man once said.... "If you like your SAW you can keep it"..."period"...

Throw whats left of your 044 in a box, ship it to the angry chimp in Tenn. and ask him to "make it able to leap tall buildings ...in a single bound". I bet he could do it for about the same money you would spend on a new "stock" whatever you can find locally.

Or....sell the 044 parts and call terry landrum about selling you a new ported johnsered "wicked work saw".
Both are gentlemen that will stand behind their work.

What Angelo said. Above.

You sound like a stick in the mud retronaut, that can't stand the thought of a little chineese made electrogizmo dinking around with the carb, when a little screwdriver will do, and be under your own control. Ya ain't alone. I hate that new crap as well.
The old 044 has it's charms and advantages, and you're used to it, so you'll get more production and be safer with a tool you know.
Stick with the old girl.

 

[bryanr2]

I bought a real nice 12mm 044 for $500. I bought a Makita 6401 for $250. There are deals out there.

 

[bootboy]

Look around for a used, well kept ms440 or 460. You can get a lot of work done with a 70+cc saw that weighs less than 15 lbs dry.

 

[XSKIER]

Cracked cylinder and busted cases? Yeah that'll make a good, reliable, "woods ported" race saw for six hundred bucks.

I don't see why a new 562XPAT or MS 362 C-M couldn't cut any fifty year old tree down. I sure wouldn't want to head out into a 20 acre forest with a 20 year old saw.

How much is "back taxes" anyway?

 

[bigv]

As a certain unwise man once said.... "If you like your SAW you can keep it"..."period"...

Throw whats left of your 044 in a box, ship it to the angry chimp in Tenn. and ask him to "make it able to leap tall buildings ...in a single bound". I bet he could do it for about the same money you would spend on a new "stock" whatever you can find locally.

Or....sell the 044 parts and call terry landrum about selling you a new ported johnsered "wicked work saw".
Both are gentlemen that will stand behind their work.

I had to weld the cases about 12 years ago on the 044, there were probably cracks when I got it. There is basically nothing salvageable- the cases are cracked in new spots, when the cylinder finally opened it burned the piston. The flywheels were why it was junked in 1997. It was an original 1992/1993 044. I set them up on a truing stand. It would need new cases, new flywheels, the rod really needs replaced, new piston, new ring pack, new jug. First magnesium weld job I ever did. Held up well.

I do not want anything altered from stock, by anyone. I have my own machine shop, so I can do anything I'd want done to a saw- but I won't ever again. I firmly believe that reliability is a function of how many parts have been altered from stock and just how many screws/nuts/bolts have been turned.

I actually regret muffler modding the Stihl's I own.

 

[Hinerman]

I do not want anything altered from stock, by anyone. I have my own machine shop, so I can do anything I'd want done to a saw- but I won't ever again. I firmly believe that reliability is a function of how many parts have been altered from stock and just how many screws/nuts/bolts have been turned.

I actually regret muffler modding the Stihl's I own.

opcorn:

 

[bigv]

Cracked cylinder and busted cases? Yeah that'll make a good, reliable, "woods ported" race saw for six hundred bucks.

I don't see why a new 562XPAT or MS 362 C-M couldn't cut any fifty year old tree down. I sure wouldn't want to head out into a 20 acre forest with a 20 year old saw.

How much is "back taxes" anyway?

40 acre forest, that plot anyway.

The "back taxes" ?
The property taxes of a few grand per year on the total 100+ acres going back 12-15 years. So probably tens of thousands of dollars plus the vig.

The sad thing is if he'd have listened to me, I could have paid the taxes in the first place instead of getting what he thought was a "discount" at the expense of having a land use plan. The other thing is that I could have written the damn plan or paid a few hundred bucks to have one written that would not be as restrictive as what he got the USFS to do for free.

I am a cheapass, but the reality is that I understand that I live in a world with no free lunches, and I always consider the worst case scenario costs and I try to factor in the total costs and opportunity costs of every decision. My dad saw saving a few hundred or few thousand dollars over the years the land was in the land use management program as worth giving up our control over how it was managed.

He informed me that he'd make money selling the trees, but I set him down and made him the face the fact that anyone he brings in locally will do their best to screw him, will not agree to preserve the sourwoods, and he like to have **** when I showed him what it costs to have the land cleared of stumps and brush and then the cost of a professional replant.

My shop gets slow anyway in the winter- so I will get started over this winter. I have a couple trailers, a dump truck and an S1854 I can haul with, a dozer, backhoe, a couple 4x4 tractors(50hp minimum), and I'm about to get a track loader.

I'm not worried about the job, I am worried that I will have to spend down time screwing around with old Homelites when I could be felling trees, skidding, loading, and hauling.

I'm going to start checking out the saws that have been suggested.

 

[bryanr2]

I had to weld the cases about 12 years ago on the 044, there were probably cracks when I got it. There is basically nothing salvageable- the cases are cracked in new spots, when the cylinder finally opened it burned the piston. The flywheels were why it was junked in 1997. It was an original 1992/1993 044. I set them up on a truing stand. It would need new cases, new flywheels, the rod really needs replaced, new piston, new ring pack, new jug. First magnesium weld job I ever did. Held up well.

I do not want anything altered from stock, by anyone. I have my own machine shop, so I can do anything I'd want done to a saw- but I won't ever again. I firmly believe that reliability is a function of how many parts have been altered from stock and just how many screws/nuts/bolts have been turned.

I actually regret muffler modding the Stihl's I own.

Oh your gonna fit in real good around here. Most everyone here runs modded saws (atleast a muffler mod). Most that stay stock are newb's to the site. We will do our best to reform you and bring ya into the light.

 

[fin460]

find another 044, or 440, 046, 460, 036, 360, 361, or 372, or 562, pro jreds, or any brand pro 60cc+
my fav is a used but good 460 for the plan listed. I wouldn't overlook a good price on a 036 size saw and get it ported.
I have to agree if you want new, no nonsense, light and powerful get a ported Terry Landrum Wicked Work Saw 2260 off the shelf sent to you. 815$ still worth a good amount when you are done.

 

[bigv]

Oh your gonna fit in real good around here. Most everyone here runs modded saws (atleast a muffler mod). Most that stay stock are newb's to the site. We will do our best to reform you and bring ya into the light.

I don't mind anyone else doing what they want, I am burned out on modding saws- my own and others who wanted them done.

I could not do what Moody, Gun Wielding Chimp, or any of the other guys do full time. I got fed up with local loggers bringing me worn out saws and not realizing that it is expensive to get the parts, it requires attention, care and precision when you do the machine work, and when you are porting the saws- it is as much an art as well as a science.

I just don't want $900 tied up in used, modded saw. I'm at a stage in life where the extra power and enjoyment I got from using a blue printed, ported saw is no longer worth it to me.

So long as everybody else is happy with theirs, I make no judgements either way, and I'm extremely happy they're happy with 'em. I think it is great that they have something they love and can enjoy making better.

 

[homelitejim]

I have modded a muffler or two but prefer my saws stock. I have a couple 40 year old saws that still get the job done though all are 5 cubic inch or larger and were top of the line logging saws.

 

[Milkman31]

40 acre forest, that plot anyway.

The "back taxes" ?
The property taxes of a few grand per year on the total 100+ acres going back 12-15 years. So probably tens of thousands of dollars plus the vig.

The sad thing is if he'd have listened to me, I could have paid the taxes in the first place instead of getting what he thought was a "discount" at the expense of having a land use plan. The other thing is that I could have written the damn plan or paid a few hundred bucks to have one written that would not be as restrictive as what he got the USFS to do for free.

I am a cheapass, but the reality is that I understand that I live in a world with no free lunches, and I always consider the worst case scenario costs and I try to factor in the total costs and opportunity costs of every decision. My dad saw saving a few hundred or few thousand dollars over the years the land was in the land use management program as worth giving up our control over how it was managed.

He informed me that he'd make money selling the trees, but I set him down and made him the face the fact that anyone he brings in locally will do their best to screw him, will not agree to preserve the sourwoods, and he like to have **** when I showed him what it costs to have the land cleared of stumps and brush and then the cost of a professional replant.

My shop gets slow anyway in the winter- so I will get started over this winter. I have a couple trailers, a dump truck and an S1854 I can haul with, a dozer, backhoe, a couple 4x4 tractors(50hp minimum), and I'm about to get a track loader.

I'm not worried about the job, I am worried that I will have to spend down time screwing around with old Homelites when I could be felling trees, skidding, loading, and hauling.

I'm going to start checking out the saws that have been suggested.

Sounds to me like you got it going on with all the equipment,shop,dump trucks and sounds to me you are a cheapass because you had to work for your money with that being said I would not be out trying to log my own land with an old homelite go get you a new saw I mite even get two and have fun with it they will pay for them selves and be safe my friend

 

[7sleeper]

Since I cannot add anything sensible about taxes in your country I will add what I think would be a sensible saw in your situation.

For 50 year old wood that has grown too close together I believe that a modern 60cc saw would be sufficient. The modern engines(562, 362, 6100, 555) use less fuel so that might be for a larger project and when walking around a dense forest an important factor.

1. 562XP top of the line from Husqvarna. Autotune carb so no playing around. Considered by many at the moment the best 60cc saw out there
2. 362 top of the line from Stihl. M Tronic = Autotune carb available shortly and traditional carb. The MT version ist supposed to be much better and lighter.
3. Dolmar 6100 top of the line from Dolmar = Makita. No AT carb available. A little heavier than the above but by far the largest fuel tank. The best deal out there by far!!!
4. Husqvarna 555 economy(=slightly detuned) Version of the 562. Autotune carb so no playing around. Excellent bang for the buck for getting into the Autotune arena.
5. Husqvarna 365 economy(=slightly detuned) Version of the 372. I believe Autotune carb so no playing around. Excellent bang for the buck for getting into the Autotune arena.
6. Echo 600p/590 Timberwolf/620 top of the line from Echo. Traditional engine design and carb. Very popular by those who have actual experience, but usually require a little muffler modification and carb retune to bring it to it's full potential. The different versions are 590(=economy version plastic forgrip) and 600p=620p(=pro version aluminum for grip) and minor changes. Excellent bang for the buck with the Timberwolf version being on sale as far as I have understood.

In real life the cutting speed differences of the 60cc saws are marginal (a few seconds) and hardly worth mentioning although one of the most important factors for many. Cutting technique and a sharp chain makes more difference in my eyes. What I believe would be important is taking the saw into your hand and feeling it. Quality wise there won't be any major differences. As usuall well cared products survive the longest.

I'm not as familiar with larger saws. But the Husqvarna 372, Sthil 441 and Dolmar 7900/7910 have a legendary following around here. Again the Dolmar being the best deal out there by far!

Good luck!

7

 

[BKrusher]

I wouldn't hesitate to grab a good used 440,460 or 372xp. I'd go 70 cc if no mods.

 

[rwoods]

IMO if you are accustomed to a 044 and a 700, you are not going to be happy falling larger trees with a 60cc saw. After using a PM700 since new in 1982, I bought a new 036Pro which quickly became my go to saw except for falling large oaks which remained the duty of the 700 until I stepped up to larger saws. Find yourself another 70cc Stihl (044s are scarce on this side of the mountain so you may have to go with a successor version). If you really liked your 700 then replace it with a 82cc MAC with AV or find yourself a good SP70 for the AV. Parts are plentiful for the 82cc MACs and they will eat the lunches of both your old saws - they will also drink the fuel of both saws.

Where are you in WNC? My brothers and I own 100 acres in Macon County. As you stated land taxes add up quick without a plan, can't your plan be changed to something more to your liking?

Ron

 

[XSKIER]

40 acre forest, that plot anyway.

I'm not worried about the job, I am worried that I will have to spend down time screwing around with old Homelites when I could be felling trees, skidding, loading, and hauling.

Exactly what I was angling at. Spend the money on the new saw. Sure it will cost more now, but how many days would you loose chasing odds and ends to keep your old girl running? If I was trying to save tens of thousands of dollars, I sure wouldn't fret spending a couple hundred extra to do it.

 

[mdavlee]

Husky 365 or jonsered 2166. 70cc with a 60 cc price tag. No autotune carbs on them either. A 461 is your only choice in stihl and it's going to run $1k give or take.