treeclimber101
UNCLE BUCK
A bad cable can be a lawyers wet dream .
Cabling
- Thread starter ExcelWill
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gorman
Addicted to ArboristSite
Do you have any newspaper clips of lawsuits rooted in bad cabling?
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nobody uses that schit anywhere I have worked (so I cannot give first hand account, thus...) but have heard a number of rig guy users on forums (only have access to one anymore...thank God) that had or witnessed failures. You using that crap now Guy? Must have just started in the little bit of tree work you do. Remember you used to do it right with thru bolts.
need to work on your math son....lets say I been putting cables for 45 years (which I have) and I put in 55 per year....well you do the math...might help your edumacation.
typical of my 8 or so years of forum contact with you Guy....you poke someone, they react, you play the injured party.ease up dave ok? this aint WWIII
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
correct me if I am wrong...but you are about 35 years old. why not just do it the right way and not try to save a few minutes and minute amount of energy. just sayin. NOTHING will detach a threaded cast eye bolt and a sledgehammer ed bolt end....best anchor.
no answer from you on the characterization of the diminishing dia. nut being the ONLY holding/anchoring entity??? think about it and get back to me. Also how about the flexible cable wiggling around like a worm being threaded on a hook on the hole on the other side of the anchor. will it destroy callus/woundwood? interrupt its formation? no chance on a solid eye banged in with 1/16 smaller dia than the hole moving anywhere and causing damage. Best way...no question.
That crooked-cut problem, plus arthritis, is why I went with wedgegrips. Those were redone a couple years back to make them more idiotproof/easier to line up.
But for smaller support systems I like swages. 4 kN is a lot of pull. "The right way" is not restricted to the way we learned in 1966. 2nd Attached from 2011. Fairly credible imo.
"Seminar arborist"! O no, what a put-down; I am so dissed. Next I'll be called "author arborist", how can I live down the shame...1st attached has rigguy wirestops I installed; keeping a tree off of US Highway #1 AND city hall. Dave do you still have your Nov 2010 TCI mag?
gorman i've testified in a few old cabling cases. Like most lawsuits they were complicated. no contractor was sued, just the owners et al. There is NO reason to fear doing defendable practice (post-1966-style is okay too. )
But for smaller support systems I like swages. 4 kN is a lot of pull. "The right way" is not restricted to the way we learned in 1966. 2nd Attached from 2011. Fairly credible imo.
"Seminar arborist"! O no, what a put-down; I am so dissed. Next I'll be called "author arborist", how can I live down the shame...1st attached has rigguy wirestops I installed; keeping a tree off of US Highway #1 AND city hall. Dave do you still have your Nov 2010 TCI mag?
gorman i've testified in a few old cabling cases. Like most lawsuits they were complicated. no contractor was sued, just the owners et al. There is NO reason to fear doing defendable practice (post-1966-style is okay too. )
O and wounding with throughbolts can mess a tree up--see last pic in attached.
17 years later, on a calm Sunday afternoon, the limb broke at that bolt and crashed onto a sidewalk that bustles with lawyers during the week. While risk assessors and politicians grappled with the issue, the tree was surrounded by a chain link fence. Reduction pruning was proposed to shorten the sprawling limbs and lessen the strain on them. This proposal was rejected due to concerns over a loss in photosynthesis, despite 33.4.2: “When necessary to accomplish the objective, pruning should be performed prior to installing a supplemental support system.”
Drilling a hole “no greater than 1/8” (3mm) larger in diameter than the hardware being installed”, per 33.5.6, can avoid excessive wounding in decayed areas, if that hardware is the cable itself. “When installing through-hardware”, 33.5.10 calls for washers to be used, and 33.5.20 states that “Installations shall follow manufacturers’ recommendations”. However, the makers of two fasteners on the market that anchor cables installed through limbs, wirestops and wedge grips, do not require washers because these fasteners are wide enough for most applications. It may be best to use washers anyway, until that standard is changed. ANSI standards are reviewed on a 5-year cycle, so they can incorporate new technology and research.
Translating research into technology is a challenge. Concepts like “mechanoperception” and “thigmomorphogenesis” dominated Biomechanics Week. Scientists there agreed that our visual tree assessments have to get better at translating the body language of trees. Restoring objectivity by documenting the positive aspects of tree structure, such as woundwood and other compensatory growth, may be a good place to start. Calling anything out of the ordinary a “defect” can lead to unnecessary removals, or to support systems that do more harm than good. “We looked at one tree with an obvious ‘defect’, and figured it would break straight away under tension from the four-ton winch” one researcher remarked. “Another tree had no visible ‘defects’, so we figured the trunk would hold strong, and that tree would uproot instead. But the exact opposite happened! We know next to nothing about tree biomechanics.”
Given the uncertainty surrounding supplemental support, arborists need to inspect trees more closely before making any conclusions or suggesting management options. There is much we can learn from the tree’s own natural support system, before we impose any treatments. “Form determines dynamic response, so it’s time to tune into tree architecture.” Ken James told the group. “Much of the scientific data available is based on forest trees, but much of it is not applicable to exposed urban trees. The answer is predetermined by the tree.” As much as James knows about tree biomechanics, he does not make recommendations to his clients when consulting about trees. “I just report information to the client” he said. “I let them figure out what to do with it.”
17 years later, on a calm Sunday afternoon, the limb broke at that bolt and crashed onto a sidewalk that bustles with lawyers during the week. While risk assessors and politicians grappled with the issue, the tree was surrounded by a chain link fence. Reduction pruning was proposed to shorten the sprawling limbs and lessen the strain on them. This proposal was rejected due to concerns over a loss in photosynthesis, despite 33.4.2: “When necessary to accomplish the objective, pruning should be performed prior to installing a supplemental support system.”
Drilling a hole “no greater than 1/8” (3mm) larger in diameter than the hardware being installed”, per 33.5.6, can avoid excessive wounding in decayed areas, if that hardware is the cable itself. “When installing through-hardware”, 33.5.10 calls for washers to be used, and 33.5.20 states that “Installations shall follow manufacturers’ recommendations”. However, the makers of two fasteners on the market that anchor cables installed through limbs, wirestops and wedge grips, do not require washers because these fasteners are wide enough for most applications. It may be best to use washers anyway, until that standard is changed. ANSI standards are reviewed on a 5-year cycle, so they can incorporate new technology and research.
Translating research into technology is a challenge. Concepts like “mechanoperception” and “thigmomorphogenesis” dominated Biomechanics Week. Scientists there agreed that our visual tree assessments have to get better at translating the body language of trees. Restoring objectivity by documenting the positive aspects of tree structure, such as woundwood and other compensatory growth, may be a good place to start. Calling anything out of the ordinary a “defect” can lead to unnecessary removals, or to support systems that do more harm than good. “We looked at one tree with an obvious ‘defect’, and figured it would break straight away under tension from the four-ton winch” one researcher remarked. “Another tree had no visible ‘defects’, so we figured the trunk would hold strong, and that tree would uproot instead. But the exact opposite happened! We know next to nothing about tree biomechanics.”
Given the uncertainty surrounding supplemental support, arborists need to inspect trees more closely before making any conclusions or suggesting management options. There is much we can learn from the tree’s own natural support system, before we impose any treatments. “Form determines dynamic response, so it’s time to tune into tree architecture.” Ken James told the group. “Much of the scientific data available is based on forest trees, but much of it is not applicable to exposed urban trees. The answer is predetermined by the tree.” As much as James knows about tree biomechanics, he does not make recommendations to his clients when consulting about trees. “I just report information to the client” he said. “I let them figure out what to do with it.”
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
wow!!! a filibuster of epic proportions on tangent to the moon. We were discussing the aspects, nomenclature and functionality of various support systems and their comparitive merits I thought. Everyone knows a cable system wrongly installed or just plain installed (anyway) with no opportunity given by the tree itself can and will cause more damage (or even failure) of the tree it is theoretically trying to protect (from damaging/injuring targets and/or itself). Everyone knows you think tweasing twig tips results in structural improvements bordering on magic.
Reduced to its lowest common denominator....does the non bolt system cause any future damage to the tree after the installation? Does the anchor end of a non bolt installation anchor the system as dependably as the bolt washer nut business end, in the cast eye bolt w/ washer set up.? Is what we are doing with the non bolt system just trying to save time and energy while giving just a ittle bitty less peace of mind (given the fact that a cable system is, in part, installed to give some peace of mind).? Or is this just another marketing smoke and mirror show for profit? Give em the best, they are paying hard earned money. I don't care if Joe Shmo from Baltimore or wherever earns enough for early retirement with this crap.
How do you suffer such accomplished windbags at these "biomechanic" soirees? You are a member of the armchair arborist's org. yourself Guy, that's why. You may dabble with a momentary canapy caper once a week or once a month, but then it is back to the armchair (desk variety) to over analyse, pontificate and blather. I still like you tho since you asked me to be Linkedin pals. Cheers.
Reduced to its lowest common denominator....does the non bolt system cause any future damage to the tree after the installation? Does the anchor end of a non bolt installation anchor the system as dependably as the bolt washer nut business end, in the cast eye bolt w/ washer set up.? Is what we are doing with the non bolt system just trying to save time and energy while giving just a ittle bitty less peace of mind (given the fact that a cable system is, in part, installed to give some peace of mind).? Or is this just another marketing smoke and mirror show for profit? Give em the best, they are paying hard earned money. I don't care if Joe Shmo from Baltimore or wherever earns enough for early retirement with this crap.
How do you suffer such accomplished windbags at these "biomechanic" soirees? You are a member of the armchair arborist's org. yourself Guy, that's why. You may dabble with a momentary canapy caper once a week or once a month, but then it is back to the armchair (desk variety) to over analyse, pontificate and blather. I still like you tho since you asked me to be Linkedin pals. Cheers.
Cheers back Dave; we are too few for fratricide. I'm happy to be armchairing at the desk and consulting half the time at 63. My canopy capers are 15-20 hrs/wk (if the weather's good) which is plenty given stamina limits from leukemia. you're happy running a company, all good. o and the filibuster tangent was just a cutnpaste; can't find the original 2010 article; tcia only archives back to 2011.
Smiley's work on swages etc. was very good; too bad they chose not to put that in the A300. Rigid conservatism really limits this industry. The retrenchment work is well substantiated btw.
Smiley's work on swages etc. was very good; too bad they chose not to put that in the A300. Rigid conservatism really limits this industry. The retrenchment work is well substantiated btw.
