Can This Live Oak be Saved?

[Rigger]

I propose we all take a deep breath, step back, and take a fresh attitude.
I have seen several major contadrictions within the message/s from the same author/s, I tried to contribute and offer sound, proven proffessional advice based on many years experience, I was doing fine untill OTG BOSTON piped-in with his unprovocked comments (message #18), they were un-necessary and un-warrented, thats when all this got out of hand and way of topic. It is obvious that this thread has gone beyond proffessional disagreeancees into personal attacks.
Don't knock me for my choice of staying ISA free, Don't push or preach it to me, I am old school due to my age but I am fully familiar with the new school as well, I try to keep as informed as possible without purchaseing ISA published materials (that no doubt makes me un-educated, un-informed, unproffessional & outdated to some).

Fireaxman;
I have proposed a possible solution (props), albeit not in it's entirity that has not been discused much, that's probably because it is unusual and unfamiliar to most of the contributors here. It is an "OPTION" and only an option, I do not proclaim it to be your only option, however I am of the strong belief that it warrents a good deal of serious consideration in regards to the preservation of this tree, in which I presume is your goal, with minimal finances. However it appears you are allready well advanced with another direction, I wish you luck and success in this endeavor.

I am all for saving this grand old tree (based on the pics), and I have done my share of free community service to trees as well, I understand your position.
My life in the tree industry has revolved around the preservation (if possible) of very old historic trees (mostly Oak). Providing this can be achieved in a safe, long term, aesthetically appealing way. This is not a situation that appears in the everyday operations of the average arborist or tree surgeon.
For ten years+ I contracted troughout Germany, UK, Ausria, France, consulting and preserving Old historic trees (mainly for gov. agency's), many of these were nothing more than hollow hulks in excess of 500years old. In most of these the trunks of the trees were not able to withhold the weight of the lateral limbs 3' dia. 4000lb.+ we found that cableing alone (with "Judicial" "selective" "thinning" "prunning" "lightening" "shortening" "reduction" etc.etc.) just did not offer the security and longevity our clients required. Some even required prior preparation a year or two in advance ie' (let me think?) "light Judicial Prunning" and a deep root prep. followed by the main operation of tree retention in a safe manner, then would come the "nachbehandlung" aftercare program.

Props were commonly used in certain situations and not only offered vertical support but in an inverted "V" configeration it offered a degree of lateral suport in wind, now don't get me wrong to much rigitity is not good, hence my hint toward shock absorbed cables and props.
I don't want to turn this into a complicated "erector set lesson" I am telling you this becuase IT HAS BEEN DONE, it works, it's your safest option besides removal, this tree is a typical and worthy candidate. The idea of proping conjers up an image that does not appear to be appealing, on the contrary if done right it looks good, real good, not overpowering but obvious it sort of adds to the nostalgia and character of the tree.
O'h sure many will scoff and pick and pull at the idea, mostly by the "new school" or those who are not familiar or experienced with this option, "closed mindedness" is another ailment that will restict ones options, but trust me I know what I am talking about, despite the fact that others feel otherwise. Of course I did not mean to suggest or imply that a $5/7 ISA's BMP was a cableing system, I am fully versed in the modern "non-invasive" systems, I do agree I did make a snyed remark about bungy cords in my haste.

NOW, I have a very important statement to clear up, "treeseer" has publicly stated that I have accused "OTG BOSTN" of Fraud! (message #24) so far he has not responded to my request for an explanation (message #25). Accuseing someone of fraud is a lot different than accusing someone of closed-mindedness in which I admit to. Sir I await your public explanation!!

 

[treeseer]

Ok Rigs, here it is. When you said, "I suspect you are in a position that dishes out contract work and no doubt you stipulate that the bid is only open to certified arborists....right."

I (mis?)took that to mean OTG would have been be writing specs that favored himself. I think it's already been answered that when a city requires a certified arborist to do or at least supervise the work, that's not dirty dealin, so I publicly apologize for the fraud comment. so there we both admit to something.

"I am fully familiar with the new school as well, I try to keep as informed as possible without purchaseing ISA published materials (that no doubt makes me un-educated, un-informed, unproffessional & outdated to some)."

well it does not make you any smarter; I'd buy a book published by the KKK if it had info I needed to know. Where's that avoidance come from; were you once wronged by a woman named LISA?

Propping is an underused support strategy; it's not even mentioned in the Support BMP's. It'd be cool to get more publicity for propping by showing off some of your work..Got any pictures/links/writeups?

 

[Rigger]

treeseer

Thank you for your explanation, hopefully we can have a little more trust and respect for each other now.

I agree it does not make me any smarter, but I think I said I did not purchase from the ISA, I do try to read and stay informed. I will admit I am not as informed as I could be, life changes, goals change, everyday issues, one does not have the spunk and gusto of a young whipper snapper.
I have loved the tree Industry, and will continue to do my own little thing in my own little part of the world for as long as I can.
It is very clear to me that I could have played my cards better and without a doubt been out on the lecture circuit, most probably leaning toward the nostalgic
evolution (the way it was and is now) how we got here sort of stuff, how can one spend over 42 years in a trade such as this without being able to captivate & intrigue an audience for a few hours.

You have asked twice now for pics\lit etc. concerning Installation of Props. I will cover that as soon as possible, in fact I have been working on a very lengthy bio, but one minuet I am being ridiculed as an old school idiot who does not know the difference between a ISA BMP and a cable!! Now I am being asked for pics and litrature so others may learn from it, it sort of rocks me around and I have been real sick with flu? for three day's as it is.

I think by my writings it is obvious to the intelligent that I've been around, I'm not stupid or a hack cowboy.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that propping is underused, it's more a case of the suitable circumstances and candidates don't often arise, and heaven forbid if any standards were formulated and published, we'd have every leaning tree from here to kingdom come propped.

I have just written over two paragraphs about my reason's for being so anti ISA, Then deleted it prior to posting this: ...<cut>.
That's all I want to say on the subject I hope that's enough. Please don't push it any further!

 

[Fireaxman]

I actually had and have continued to give a lot of thought to propping. The height of the limbs have been my main deterrent. I originally envisioned it would take an A-frame to do the job, but Rigger's suggestion of a 6" pipe inside an 8" pipe, maintaining flexibility, not trying to be too rigid, with a "V" of angle iron supporting the limb perhaps, cemented in the ground and telescoped up to the limb before welding in place, makes a lot of sense to me.

"Fireax" is an offshore nickname for a cutting torch. I started my career as a welder. Got fire. Got steel. Got welder. Just need time.

Rigger, I've misplaced my pipe fitter's handbook. Do you know what ID matches OD? Will 6" schedule 80 go inside 8" schedule 80, or 40?

 

[Plant Manager]

Live oak

Dear Fireaxman

I wish you well and success as you venture out on this journy. Since you have welding experience you should be able to teach (inform) the rest of us as to your success. Ihave no pictures or experience installing such props only reading about it. ("danger Will Robinson danger"...) Yet after viewing the pics ("even more danger") I would guess 4 maybe 5 cables. YES SORRY the (Old School) static cable 3/8 inch 3/4" eyenutsis needed invasive.. YES DEFINATLY. the alternative rubber bands wont cut it and hopefully treeseer wont cut the real cable either .
Good luck

 

[Fireaxman]

I will not forget the time we went to clean up and finally cut down a poplar city tree that some arborist had cabled years before. I almost chucked a top into the chipper before I saw the eye and piece of broken cable. ... One day these trees will have to be dealt with by someone, perhaps a big nasty suprise will lie in wait for them, I wonder.

One of the nice things about the "Non-Invasive" system is that everything stays on the outside, highly visible. No drilling or tapping, no interior steel. If the home owner does not maintain, the system disintegrates and the tree falls down. Nobody's fault but the homeowner, who has been informed of the possible consequences.

It was wisely suggested by PM that I re-evaluate the risk, the "Targets". I wouldn't try to save the tree if it posed even a moderate risk to the homeowners or general public. As it is, the only thing at risk is the old Ford (which by the way was a show car until a few years ago, very tight, no leaks, still runs great). Some of you may have seen what looks like a road on the South side of the tree and thought it may be threatened by the tree. It is a private drive, and it is well outside the drip line of the tree. The only buildings around are a shed and a garage that has been converted to a sports den. They are on the tension side of the tree's natural support system, and everything I study assures me the compression side will fail first. The COG is heavily to the compression side, away from the buildings, and toward an open field. The only thing at risk is a mockingbird nest in the South fork.

The tree is stable in normal weather situations. The husband and wife who live there (children grown and living out of state) have been aware of the risk in heavy weather for a long time and they are in the habit of staying away from the tree in threatening weather.

Judiceous pruning plus a cable or two plus some supporting iron sounds like a good combination. Man. This started out to be just an afternoon spent removing Katrina hangers from a nice tree. No good deed goes unpunished. Or maybe, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62)

 

[Fireaxman]

I have proposed a possible solution (props), albeit not in it's entirity that has not been discused much, that's probably because it is unusual and unfamiliar to most of the contributors here. [\QUOTE]

Rigger, some picts or "Best Management Practices" really would be a help if you know of any. "Inverted V" ???

Plant Manager - What have you read? Where?

 

[Rigger]

Fireaxman

I am sorry I can't help you with Pipe ID's & OD's I just used the idea of Oil rig pipe because we are here in the states and most are familier with that, to be honest I had never heard the term oil rig pipe untill I was here. We just used various dia. steel pipe according to the situation. Let me stress I have not propped a tree here in the states (I don't think they are different), the work I am refering to was carried out over twenty years ago. However the concept is by no means outdated nor should it be regarded as old school. My only concern here is to give the tree a good chance of long term survival in a safe condition whilst at the same time maintaining a healthy good looking tree. That is your goal as well. The problem here on the forums is the fact that 90% of the advice comes from the printed word, the more one writes the more one puts his head in the noose, held at the ready by armchair arborists.

OK, I hope I read & understand your message correct. The height should not be a factor it was not for us (well within reason that is), as for a piece of "v" or angle iron to support the limb, No I think you would do better with a half dia. craddle, in your location you must antisipate future high winds. A dual prop leading up to each side of this cradle (hence the inverted "V" = ^) would offer more support for lateral movement. Placement is the critical factor, the base placement/s, angle of prop/s and support cradle point are all equally critical. I would use a little $10 laser to sight it all up, you can get a cheap one that would also give you precise measurements that would be handy for giving you your pipe lengths. Either way the support point will grow into the limb. AAA"hhhh invasive attachment, get over it, trees have been invaded with wounds long befor man and survived, you have got to get away from that written word and think outside the box and use your own observations.

Non invasisve histeria, One can easily find examples of wounds manmade and natural whereby the trees are healthy and safe 10/20/30/ even 100 years later with no detrimental effects, we have all seen pics of iron objects sticking out of trees, from bicycle frames to vehicles, pipes, old tools, shrapnal, and on and on.
Fireaxman, I am catching a lot of flack here on behalf of you and this tree, I hope it is worthwhile?

Once you have determined the base/s and cradle points you must consider how you will attach the props (pipes), we welded (had welded) fixtures similar to those seen on the ends of hydraulic rams they worked for us and looked pretty darn proffessional. We sank the top of the concrete base pads 3-4" under the surface for stability (more flack - root zone). I would go at least 3'x 3' and two deep on them 18cubic feet. pre paint props to psychedelic bright pink and dab on some purple spots so they stick out!!!!

And I am wasteing my time.

--------------
Fireaxman
I can't help you with Pipe ID's & OD's, schedule this & that!!
Pics neither
BMP's - for propping don't exist, according to "treeseer" and I believe him. (not enough of a market to make $$'s on)
Inverted "V" is exactly what it suggests. = "^" = prop configuration.
I cannot (timewise), and will not (proffessionaly wise) offer more on this topic.
--------------

 

[Pcoz88]

6" and 8" pipe sch 80

6" sch 80 inch will fit in to 8" sch80 pipe.I ck my fitters book.The outside for sch 80 6" is 6.625 and 8" sch 80 i. d. is 7.625.:yoyo: :greenchainsaw: :blob5:

 

[Fireaxman]

6" sch 80 inch will fit in to 8" sch80 pipe.I ck my fitters book.The outside for sch 80 6" is 6.625 and 8" sch 80 i. d. is 7.625

Just right. 1/2 inch crack? No problem. Weld up "Anything but the crack of dawn or a broken heart."

My temporary "Cabling" with double braid 5/8 bull rope held up well through a weekend of high winds and thunder storms. The real stuff should arrive from Sherrill tomorrow.

There's hope.

Help me pray for no hurricane this summer. It don't look good. Gulf water temps are already above 76 degrees.

Thanks for the time and advice, Rigger. And, Illigitimie Non Vu Corundum, or something like that (I made a "D" in Latin).

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i thought 'props' was a good idea; kinda support counter-intuitively to the conversation flow - from the opposite direction than we were looking. Just looked a little hard to apply here, stably. Looking at having a favorable low width and weight to height strategy for props, seems prohibitive; so design would have to lend to other mechanics.

i also have noticed how props can change the water route though.

 

[treeseer]

Looking at having a favorable low width and weight to height strategy for props, seems prohibitive; so design would have to lend to other mechanics.

I totally agree.

i also have noticed how props can change the water route though.

I've seen the water run down the pipe instead of running down the trunk. This seems more like a positive than a negative.

 

[stihlatit]

By the way, you will find me pretty quick to agree to suggestions from TreeSpyder, treeseer, Okietreedude, Skwerl, John Paul Sanborn, and a few others because I have been studying their posts for about a year now and they have won my confidence. The men who worked for me on production platforms offshore for 25 years would have found it amusing that I have become so "easily persueded" in my retirement. But I made a good career and a comfortable retirement out of being able to recognize and take good advice.

OTG and Rigger - when good advisors disagree, it's particularly interesting. I usually look for the solution somewhere in between their arguments. I think by the very nature of debate we tend to extremes. So Thanks for your arguments. I AM listening.

Well said and a good quote to live by. Good luck in saving this magnificent tree Fireaxeman.

 

[Fireaxman]

i thought 'props' was a good idea; kinda support counter-intuitively to the conversation flow - from the opposite direction than we were looking. Just looked a little hard to apply here, stably. Looking at having a favorable low width and weight to height strategy for props, seems prohibitive; so design would have to lend to other mechanics.

I also discarded my first thought about props because of the height of the branches. When Rigger brought it back to mind it occurred to me the height might not be all bad. 10 feet of pipe inside pipe (6" inside 8") would probably provide some pretty good support (the laminate, seal welded at top and bottom, would actually be stiffer than just a single pipe) and any retained flexibility might encourage the tree to more heavily buttress itself at the trunk.

I'm actually thinking "Keep it Simple, Stupid"; just single verticle supports of 6" inside 8" rather than an "A" frame, plus the cabling, and maybe some rodding. I think it might be worth trying. If the pipe laminate takes a permanent bend, well, back to the drawing board. But our offshore platforms are essentially pipe in pipe; "Guyed Tower" platforms are actually cabled, and some of them are in 2000 feet of water. They flex enough to make some people sea sick, but (most of them) survive hurricane force winds. Katrina got several of them, but She was the exceptional storm.

I need to sell it to the homeowner though. They weren't too excited about steel posts holding up their live oak, and they were really pleased that the tree made it through the last round of thunderstorms on the strength of the temporary (rope) cabling. Their first response was "Wont ropes be enough?". I don't think they have a real good grip on just how much weight and leverage is involved.

Got the stuff from Sherrill today for the cabling. I'll be on it Saturday morning, weather permitting.

stihlatit - Thanks!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

I've seen the water run down the pipe instead of running down the trunk. This seems more like a positive than a negative.

Good Point; most of my prop observations are on low branches, carrying water out wide, then prop interferes with that trail; to deposit water closer than if not interfered with. But, i guess if propped branches were pointing up, then the water trail back towards trunk could then just as well be interrupted and trailed to ground farther from trunk.


Now; that could lend to possibilities that a rope swing, climbing rope, hanging plant etc. could do same IMLHO. Whereby, if placed on branch carrying water away from trunk, could then trail water closer to trunk. But, if the water was running a slant back towards trunk, and rope, chain etc. interfered with that trail and could then deliver water farther from trunk?

 

[treeseer]

Now; that could lend to possibilities that a rope swing, climbing rope, hanging plant etc. could do same IMLHO.

IMLHO In my --laughingly? lovingly? ludicrously?--humble opinion, you are off on a tangent here KC. <5% of total moisture is not so big a factor eh?

Fireax has the cabling gear and the BMP instructions, let's see what kind of arboricultural magic he creates. Tall stepladder and long polepruner could do the tip reduction/thinning pruning job. Easier working from the outside in on that leaning trunk.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Umm, i was thinking Lowly or Lil' Humble Opinion.:yoyo:

On the rest, just brainstorming while absorbing the implications of what is stated and what to observe next!

 

[Fireaxman]

... Tall stepladder and long polepruner could do the tip reduction/thinning pruning job. Easier working from the outside in on that leaning trunk.

Ooops! I was about to fire up the 200t from ropes. Am I thinking too drastic on the pruning, in spite of the worthy cautions I have been contemplating from Treeman14?

I was going to cut the heavy limbs away from the garage / sports den, to lighten the South fork and move COG even further away from the garage, and then take off all crossing limbs and most of the stuff under the main canopy (where the dead sticks indicate those branches are not recieving much light anyway).

Got good pole pruner (Jameson poles, Marvin head). Got good step ladder. Thanks for shifting my focus. I'll get what I can with those tools first and then see what else needs to be done.

I really like what I see about this "TreeSave" stuff, now that I have some of it in my hands. Light, flexible, easy to splice and work with, 20,000 lb tensile as opposed to 15,400 for premium 7 strand steel cable; but, yes, expensive. Has anybody got any experience with it?

 

[Fireaxman]

... just brainstorming while absorbing the implications of what is stated and what to observe next!

"Single Tree Water Theory" makes a lot of sense. In (my) memoriam teneo.

 

[treeseer]

Got good pole pruner (Jameson poles, Marvin head). Got good step ladder. Thanks for shifting my focus. I'll get what I can with those tools first and then see what else needs to be done.

Got the right idea now. Save the 200t for the big wood--maybe on the next tree. Also, crawling through that crown would damage the part of the tree that you want to keep.