I guess it depends on how hungry you are, and I've worked for my share of companies that didn't offer it, but that's only because i was hungry enough to put up with it at the time. If i had to work six days a week year round with no bennies AND no overtime pay it would definitely irritate me to say the least. I can understand how it can be financially difficult for a company to pay time and a half, but don't gloss it over and make it sound like a benefit.
Can't find professional treemen in Paradise
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Guy Meilleur
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My math is a little weak at times, but first I heard of CA was 1991, 13 years ago. So either you all were in on it 10 years before it started, or this is a typo.
And overtime? If you want someone to work extra you oughta pay em extra. If you're taking on extra work you should be charging enough to pay your people fairly.
If overtime is not x1.5 it should be totally optional.
NovoArbor
ArboristSite Member
I didn't think I was glossing it over - what I said is that we give our men 40 hrs per week - even if they work 1 day - rain or shine - WHO DOES THAT? and it happens to be in our neck of the woods, that no one pays 1 1/2 time overtime unless it is a large company. It's not that we insist they work Saturdays - it's that we can't pay time and a half and be competitive. Our choice is to work and it's their's also. If we had to pay that - we'd keep them at the 40. I might add....are the ones here that expect that kinda pay business owners?
Let me also add that we're really good employers - we believe that and so do our men. We pay the price when there is no work, and they reciproate by working the overtime when we have it. What could be wrong with that?
Also, we give them their clothes to wear - their equipment to use - and pay for their education. Plus we're going to institute a profit-sharing plan.
NovoArbor
ArboristSite Member
Re: Re: Can't find professional treemen in Paradise
Typo for sure. Sorry about that. Claude was one of the early ones - whenever that was.
Typo for sure. Sorry about that. Claude was one of the early ones - whenever that was.
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If I were to ever go doing treework full-time IMO being a contracted climber is the way to go for me. I am not basing this on what Brian & Butch say, ( although they are pretty much right on the money) I am basing this on several climbers in my area that have had this work very well for them.
I am pretty much a chief on my own terms by myself or with one guy. Running a company or being a foreman is not in my nature.
I am pretty much a chief on my own terms by myself or with one guy. Running a company or being a foreman is not in my nature.
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NovoArbor
ArboristSite Member
Hey there....I'm not quite sure I understand you. Maybe you mean "doing" as opposed to "during". What does IMO mean? What is a "contracted climber" ? Where do you live/work? Sorry, but I don't understand your last statement either about several climbers. One thing is for sure - there are different modes of operation in various parts of the country. Our aim is to really do right by our men and right enough for us to make a decent living for the time and money we invest.
NovoArbor
ArboristSite Member
Yeah - that's right. We can't charge more to our clients by providing them service on weekends. And, if we have the work that takes us into a Saturday which is only during our high season, our men have the option. Which they chose to take. I don't feel that given the opportunity to work, they should be paid more - we don't make more. And we support them for all the days that we make nothing. What's wrong with that? I'm all ears.
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Sorry meant doing not during.
IMO: in my opinion.
A contracted climber is one who sub-contracts him/herself out to perform treework. This is appealing because there is no large overhead or large equipment repair or the headaches of employees to deal with. You are light and lean! Hope this answers your question.
Brian and Butch, if I missed something feel free to add!!!
NovoArbor
ArboristSite Member
NovoArbor
ArboristSite Member
I figured that out after I wrote back. IMHO - in my humble opinion - what is the benefit to the man that works for us??? You can't have a person work for you full time and call him a sub-contractor and if he does - then he has to give us proof of insurance. We're not looking to leave this guy on the lerch. We want him protected.
Stumper
One Man Band
The benefit for the climber is independence. He can climb for 2, 3 or 40 companies, take time off at his discretion, not get stuck changing the oil in the chipper or sweeping the floor on slow days/rain days, etc. The benefit for the companies that hire a contract climber lies in not having another employee-no pressure to keep him/her working, no payroll headaches. The contract climbers that make it work are good climbers and generally responsible and reliable people. They get paid more per hour than employees but tend to remain available instead of quitting to go into competition or getting busted for drugs or disorderly conduct and suddenly not showing up.:angel:
NovoArbor
ArboristSite Member
My, you paint an interesting picture of climbers. There is no such thing here such as you describe - that being contract climbers. But the ones you describe as such as drugs & also alcoholics definately are here and probably anywhere. Why would I pay more to a subcontractor? You don't have the insurance do you? You can't be a team member. You have no investment in our company. We therefore can't treat you as such. We accepet the "headaches" so that in return, we get team people. How the heck do you think we can build a business? This is not a day to day or week to week business. This is year to year - performing week to week at the optimal of the arborist profession. You're coming from a totally different place than we are with all due respect.
NovoArbor
ArboristSite Member
Well that's going to take a bit of looking into. I will you tell you this though, that it's several months out of the year. but I'd be happy to provide you with the exact numbers if you'd like because we keep very detailed reports.
And what's your point? Do you think we're not being fair?
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
In a perfect world, nothing. However, IME that almost always leads to some form of abuse, usually from the employer.
It sounds like you have your people on salary.
jkrueger
ArboristSite Guru
I'm an independent climber. I carry insurance. And have my own gear and 'stuff'. People higher me for the quality of pruning and magic with trees. I work on the jobs I want to.
Yesterday while setting up to clean up a very dirty, large pin oak, the client came out and in a voice laced with anger said, "I only want the bottom cleaned out, it is fine above." My response, "see were I'm tied in up there in the crown, it is very dirty up to that point", I went back to my work and disregarded the clients huff.
With that tree almost complete, the client returned and said, "Wow, I think I love my trees again", and she smiled at me with gratitude.
Climbing and trees isn't a job, it's an intentful passion. I do what I do each day with a thought to have a great time. I take jobs away from "companies". Guess, people at my level could never get a job at a company.
Jack
Yesterday while setting up to clean up a very dirty, large pin oak, the client came out and in a voice laced with anger said, "I only want the bottom cleaned out, it is fine above." My response, "see were I'm tied in up there in the crown, it is very dirty up to that point", I went back to my work and disregarded the clients huff.
With that tree almost complete, the client returned and said, "Wow, I think I love my trees again", and she smiled at me with gratitude.
Climbing and trees isn't a job, it's an intentful passion. I do what I do each day with a thought to have a great time. I take jobs away from "companies". Guess, people at my level could never get a job at a company.
Jack
Kneejerk Bombas
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I once worked for a guy that banked overtime hours. He said I can pay you overtime if you want, but it'll be 3 or 4 dollars an hour less to compensate him for the extra cost.
The problem is it didn't cost him extra to work us weekends and really long days, so that's how we ended up working.
The problem with mandatory saturdays was that we'd work sat. or sun. and then it would rain tues. and wed., so we'd still only have a 40 hour week, and all our days off were crappy rain days, so you don't have time with your family and you can never plan anything.
From the employers stand point, it's cheaper to pay a little lower wage and give overtime pay because WC is not charged out higher per hour than normal hours, so you save 50% on WC for overtime.
The problem is it didn't cost him extra to work us weekends and really long days, so that's how we ended up working.
The problem with mandatory saturdays was that we'd work sat. or sun. and then it would rain tues. and wed., so we'd still only have a 40 hour week, and all our days off were crappy rain days, so you don't have time with your family and you can never plan anything.
From the employers stand point, it's cheaper to pay a little lower wage and give overtime pay because WC is not charged out higher per hour than normal hours, so you save 50% on WC for overtime.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Sure ya could! Maybe a 'lil pay cut, though...
jkrueger
ArboristSite Guru
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