carabiners

[treeman82]

Which one of these should be retired? The one on the left, which is my key chain, or the one on the right which was used for rigging small stuff out of trees on a pulley.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Well, hey; we just bought tires last week!

No, but; seriously................Are you dyslexic?

 

[treeman82]

Spyder man, that was a joke. A "friend" of mine broke the one to the right. Any of you guys know how much a kilonewton is?

 

[Treeman14]

I'm pretty sure a kilonewton is a measure of force equal to approximately 225 pounds.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Ohhhhhhhhhhh humor; why didn't eye see that!

Actually, i fooled myself and didn't get tires last weak; so i guess i didn't really retire like you did.

Well a kn; i'll take a stab at that.................1000 Newtons? i believe a Newton is a measure of force; not necessarily static weight; whereby a pound is a measure of weight and to be ex-pressed as force must be in the form of pounds per square foot etc.; as in dropping something and multiplying etc.. i believe that; in round, useful terms 1Kn= 225#of force; in actual terms; that is off by a hair over .1#. Or Kns x .102+=1 ton; or roughly Kns/10=tons; with a built in safety factor

Whereby; a 'biner marked 24Kn is rated at {5400# - (2.4+#)} (notice that the error = approx. tons!) of force; one marked at 40 kn is rated at 9000# of force with not even 5# error. i keep these 2 marks in mind and crunch/interpolate the rest. Whether these ratings are conservative or flirtatious depends on the manufacturer.

So with 10:1 or so safety factors; and extra safe manufacturers; i just calculate at 225# of force = 1Kn; and feel good about it!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Ken, I hope you crunch before you cut. I hate crunches after.

Another thing to look for on metal objects is SWL wich is the max Safe Working Load. there is another abbriviation out there too.

BTW I tought that the SWL rule for hardwear was 4:1 where fabric was 10:1. So on a 24kn biner on could go up to 1350lbs. (not that I would do that on a nonlocking 'biner!)

 

[sonny]

Them beiners look like the non-locking alum. That are not made for human support Or heavy work. there just made to like carry things on the belt & such. & a rating of 5k is not much. i would not trust any thing under 12 k. Heck ave. climbing rope is 7700 k.

 

[oakdancer]

Not sure of the HSE laws in the states but here in UK they have banned screwgate carabiners and opted for twistlock....any you guys been been hanging on to an icy limb with one arm and trying to undo a twistlock with a frozen hand....not easy...so why ban screwgates? , probably cause they are simple, safer and cheaper thats why....anyway i think the equivelent to HSE is OSHA, oh and they also banned front protection trousers for climbers......wait for it .........they insist on all ound protection, just so as when you need to get your leg that extra 1/4 of an inch you cant......want more ....ok.....next year, they want to introduce protective jackets, thats why us residential climbers buy arborwear gear just so we can get up the f.....g tree do the job and come back to earth, without someone waiting to wrap you in a warm blanket and feed you chocolate and cart you off to the van to recover for an hour before work starts again.....so what do you think of that guys, I'm not whinging just stating some perfectly reasonable facts

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

There is a lot of wrangling going on betwixed the industry and OSHA. We have ANSI standards that say things like.

Protective chaps, pants.. SHALL be worn whenever chainsaws are operated on the ground.

Head protection shall be worn whenever tree work is in progress.

Both hands shall be on the chainsaw while cutting.

two points of attachment shall be used when ever working in a tree


These are not laws but the standards that a company will be held to in case of OSHA investigation.

 

[treeman82]

Sonny, the Biner' noted that <> is 24KN and ^ and the other way is 7

 

[lhampton]

We have weeded out all of our screw gate 'biners. Guys where getting careless and not spinning them closed. We tried to keep some steel screw gates for rigging, but they kept finding there way back onto a saddle.

Louie

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

We use steel screw locks on about all rigging, and aluminum buttons on lifeline stuff. They look and feel totally different, to differentiate them. After, placing a screw lock into a hitching, re-directing position, setting the line, i rake the length of my hand along the screw lock 2x to spin close, i don’t want to run it to its end; so after force is applied it doesn’t jam closed.

i carry about 6-rigging slings choked onto the ‘biners on the opposite side of my belt than my saw; and 2 pulleys, extra ‘biners on the saw side. i have all this because I used to be up there evaluating whether it was worth while to send this gear up to experiment or function with. Then one day i decided that that was holding me back. i was going to war; and loaded my belt for battle, i made myself get used to carrying the weight; and they were always there on my side ready to use. i have learned so many secrets to them since, so many ways to use these universal hitches in sequence and variety to usher maximum safety, control and efficiency. i wouldn’t have learned all this without having them right there ready to go; i’ve done a lot of thinking sitting up thar, looking around and thumbing a screwlock open and closed!

Eye see rigging as building gravity powered machines, the line, slings, ******* as universal controls to be assembled in many varying ways and configurations to build these machines. Once fluent with the varying arrangements; you can seamlessly flow from one operation to the next. Perhaps using the same sling/’biner combo 4x or so in different ways without moving it; for these tools are truly universal hitching/ redirecting machine pieces who’s utility and promise is mostly limited by your imagination in building controls for your gravity powered machines.

In older Mt. Climbing manuals 2 plain ‘biners laid parallel in a joint configuration with opposing gates were equivalent to 1 screwlock in safety, they also gave 2x strength, and less bend on the eye of the line. i always calculate that a rigging ‘biner is going to get more abuse so stay with steel that all look alike for general rigging. Were as the aluminum I go with the lightness for life line applications; but they get watched for and used in less rigorous ways, less likely to be positioned for stress fracturing. i also like keeping a few 'dog leg' 'biners arond for various quick links.

i assume we all know to load only on the major axis; with the gate scheduled in such a way as to not open, reducing the strength commonly to about 1/3rd. This includes locking gates, and gates facing away from the harder surfaces of the 2 directions. For repeated use (suspended false crotch etc.) I place the gate so closed is down; giving it less chance to walk (uphill) open during repeated, un-inspected use (because of its position). The flat rope (sling webbing) can take quite a tight bight without distortion of shape/ strength.

There are aluminum, non locking gates 'biners that i would trust strength in, but generally not for overhead lifting/ lowering operations. Anyway; for repeated use i just go with steel for its durability.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I know some guys using clevis for rigging big stuff due to the wider bending radius. Is anyone using snatch block with a safety on the hook?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Rigging hardware should never find it's way to climbing applications. They should be as seperate as you and your groundman's underwear.
Screwlock binners are not good for climbing because they don't double lock, although I see MR links sneaking into some educator's climbing arsenal. I've started to use one, so if I fall to my death, you'll know why.
I still use screwlocks for light lowering, it gives me the choice of open or closed gate lowering. Any time the branch is higher than the roping point, I close the gate, otherwise open for faster retrieval.
Treespyder's idea of carrying everything he owns, is a popular one, but I like to have it all hanging in the truck, and then pick the tools I'll need for the particular job. For example, if I'm going to be deadwooding trees in an open yard, I will go up with an empty belt, I don't need extra blocks, straps, steel binners, and other crap getting in my way all day.

 

[Treeman14]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
Rigging hardware should never find it's way to climbing applications. They should be as seperate as you and your groundman's underwear.

Now that is what I call a quotable quote!!! I can see that in Blair's next book.

But wait a minute, my ground man is a woman. We better not go there...

 

[Ghivelder]

Originally posted by Treeman14


Now that is what I call a quotable quote!!!

I felt like quoting this one!

By the way, when I've finally think I found a binner easy to insert the rope in (the one on the right), you tell me it is a joke...

Buon Anno a tutti,
Sergio

http://www.tree-climbing.com

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Sergio, how do you say "tree advocate" in Italian?

is it Advocati DiArbori?