Chemical Sharpening

[don]

Today most computer chips are made by laser etching or chem etching and is more accurate than any mechanical process. Accuracy is so good you can view the results with an electron microscope.

Who else uses this method after a mechanical filing?

 

[don]

directions

What do you use to hold the cutter in the solution?

 

[MasterBlaster]

 

[don]

Retail bottle from long ago.

Guess you could any acid to make a better edge.

Do any of the racers sharpen this way?

 

[don]

So the acidic exhaust from the engine

The acid does not permeate into the steel nor modify its composition. (assuming STP and cleaning / rinsing after use)

Metallurical research shows a change of PH will cause two things. Etching by removing of the carbon bonding or dissolving of the oxide layer.

This process has an accuracy down to the nanometer.

How accurate is your grinder or the expertice in your hand filing abilities?

Why do you think they use chrome the cutter as compared to?

 

[MasterBlaster]

Is this the same chemical process associated with that liquid you put you shaving razor in to keep it sharp?
Have you heard of that?

I LIKE the idea! Where do you get the stuff?

 

[don]

You guys ... are so on

Yes this is similar stuff they use to sharpen a razor or scapel for surgery.

I used to get it from a company in North Dakota who specifically designed it for high carbon based cutters but because of all the controls on shipping chemicals they stopped selling it.

Then I used the old chemical solutions from a titanium etching company who would "give" it to me instead of paying big bucks to neutralize it and pour it away.

Now I am thinking of some cheaper chemical and a better way to position the cutter in the solution.

Wonder if I could find an old patent declaring the formula. We can probably get a more aqueous (watered down) solution from a retail store.

I am sure a chemical wholesaler has the ingredients.

 

[don]

how much metal to remove

Hand sharpening is the way I do my chains.

A chain has different types of metal at various locations.

The chrome coating on a cutter keeps a poor edge but builds an protective oxide layer more efficiently than a carbon steel blade.

That's one of the reasons why a chrome bumper is shiny and an engine block is not . The oxide layers are not as thick for chromium because of each metals characteristic resulting from the introduction of oxygen.

Chromium has different characteristics to variations in ph than Fe iron. This is where we get the edge on a cutter, from the iron.

You are right RockyJSquirrel The solution eats away at all surfaces but the surfaces on a cutter have different materials (metals) on it. They have different corrosion characteristics on it.

That is why you only put the chemical on the cutter and not on the links.

Would you agree a scapel is sharper than a chainsaw cutter?
If the blade is smoother going into a material it should generate less heat , vibrate less, and dog gonnit just cut better.

Ever been cut by the edge of an old steel panel? Same principle only we are controlling it by the concentration of solution and the time it is immersed.

Would you agree a chain gets Better after some time in the wood? Because of the removal of any burred edges on the cutter?

Chemical etching speeds up the process.

Down to my last quart and wondering if anybody has a source?
Anyway I use this stuff on the "wing" type cutters since it had to be consistant by hand.

 

[Newfie]

Darn, we've been doing it all wrong!!! I think I will leave the saws at home and take one of the wife's scalpels instead.

 

[Jacob J.]

This is along the lines of my idea of making an acetylene powered chainsaw.

 

[don]

Please post pics

I'd like to see a gas turbine chainsaw.

Do these look like scapels?

 

[MasterBlaster]

I'll take a gallon, Don.

 

[glens]

I'd bet this process is intended to finish an edge, not <i>create</i> one.&nbsp; That is, the chain would have to be sharpened in whatever usual manner before being dunked.&nbsp; Dropping even a wood-dull chain in without any preparation would undoubtedly yield a dull chain with smoother contours.&nbsp; And I'd imagine we're not talking about any changes one could readily discern with the unaided eye.

If there's any reasonable application of this stuff to saw chain it would have to be for racing, and Tommy Fales Jr. et al. probably wouldn't admit using it even if "caught".

I absolutely cringe whenever I recall accidentally cutting myself with a razor blade as a child; thanks a lot, I hadn't thought of it in several years until now.

Glen

 

[don]

The reason its not used for racing

We would probably be drinking it instead of using it.

Wish I had a gallon to give to you.

Would invite you out but your map probably shows the end of the earth before you get here. Don't want you to fall of the edge of this flat top.

Poor Glen, can you get somebody to kiss it for you ?

 

[Stumper]

Since muriatic acid is used for "refreshing" files I would think tat it would work to sharpen a sharp chain. As Brian and Glen have pointed out-it won't do diddly for a dull one.

 

[don]

Makes sense to me... cha

The same solution used to get the rust out of the walls of a swimming pool and clean the driveway.

There you go , just have to figuire out the concentration and compensate by diluting it or reducing the "exposure" time.

I guess you could be right Stumper with the experience and common sense approach of Brian and Glen in the field of chem etching.

 

[glens]

Muriatic acid?&nbsp; I use that to clean up my masonry if I've gotten sloppy with the mortar (though it's much less effort to be neat in the first place).

Hey look Don, I'm sure I don't know as much as you about chemical etching, but I'd bet I've got a pretty good handle on it.&nbsp; Five bucks says this is nothing more than an alternate method of stropping, albeit a superior one (at least in practicality) for some purposes, but certainly not for others.&nbsp; Can you take a dull scalpel, steak knife, sawchain, or whatever and put a complete new edge on it with just a strop?&nbsp; Maybe.&nbsp; But then the edge you'd started with would have to be something a fair bit sharper than that which most of us "normal" people would consider dull.

Take a piece of steel with an edge having a 50&deg; included angle (like, say, a sawchain cutter), round the edge to a 20_mil radius and drop it into your solution.&nbsp; How much metal will have to be removed before that radius reduces to nothing?&nbsp; .020 (totally evenly) off of both surfaces (and the included radius) would just about do it.&nbsp; Would there be a 0&deg; radius left afterward?&nbsp; Maybe.&nbsp; You are, after all, looking for a 0&deg; radius, right?&nbsp;

Let's get practical now.&nbsp; Say there's a chromium layer on one of the surfaces and it's relatively unaffected by the etching process.&nbsp; The other face would still need to have the .020" remove, and that's perfectly reasonable for achieving a new edge on a saw chain cutter.&nbsp; But how are you keeping all the other un-plated surfaces from being reduced by that same dimension?&nbsp; Are you masking them somehow (maybe photographically)?&nbsp; I didn't think so.&nbsp; How many of these "sharpenings" will it take before all that's left of the top plate is the chromium layer?&nbsp; That's what I thought.&nbsp; The thickness of the material under the chrome will be all you can remove from the face in front of the chrome, but long before that the chain will be good and "stove up".

You brought up an interesting topic.&nbsp; I'm not denying it's effectiveness, just it's practicality to "our" purpose.&nbsp; "Treating" a scalpel is one thing (and God knows I wouldn't want one tearing a nerve or something, so make it good and sharp), but a sawchain ain't even near to coming close to approaching such requirements.

If you just want to pick a fight, then I'm your Huckleberry.&nbsp; Otherwise let's move along.

Glen

 

[don]

Respect , knowledge and the zen art of interpersonal communication

I can respect your feedback and challenge.
Afterall if someone gives an opinion or statement on this site its important to understand what it is all about. It can be difficult to discern where the facts fiction and frolic begin and end in this forum.

I certainly don't know everything and don't know what the others know about technology as it applies to cutter technology.

Some might consider this technique of creating an edge a waste of time.

To get a cutter as sharp as a scapel.

Some people spend weeks to make one loop for a race and spent years perfecting their technique.

Others might consider an invaluable method causing them to cut better. Next years best cut times.

As far as being practical. I live in Los Angeles and have more saws than any of the 10 Stihl shops within 30 miles.

Don't need a Huckleberry and don't appreciate acting like a dingleberry, myself included.

The topic is chainsaws and this subtopic is chemical etching, right?

If anyone has the time to demonstrate their knowledge opinion and otherwise , hey its a free forum, well kind of.

If man relied on science instead of emotional conditioning we would have been on the moon over 2 thousand years ago.

 

[MasterBlaster]

What the heck is a Huckleberry?

 

[tony marks]

there many ways to skin a cat. but who wants a dam skint cat.
without using chemicals u could alway go at it [cutter ]with an porcelon sp,,
knive sharpener. take it accross the edge enough and u probably make it a tad sharper.but we cuttin wood here so the balance is between strength of the edge and sharpness of the edge.
u got to have both when u cuttin wood.
on a similar subject .. did u guys know that 90% of these people in the lawn care buisiness,, use a grinder on the blades and sharpen every day.
i know,, ,i did the same for 20 yrs.
then tried an hand file ... the edge stays all week. when i sharpen now and the edge is still there after a wk.. takes about the same time to get the blades sharp once u learn to use the file..