Climber working with us with own insurance

[Skywalker]

We are about to have a climber who carries his own insurance climb for us off and on

do we need to run him on comp or just pay him as a independent


i know this is a gray area


any ideas

 

[TDunk]

Not real sure, i've thought about this myself.

 

[treeslayer]

pay him cash every day, A LOT.

cover his W/C.

buy him gas and chains for his saws.

feed him, provide cold drinks.opcorn:

heck, share your wife. this guy is your bread and butter.

spoken like a true contract climber, huh?

and never, ever, leave him in the tree without ground help always watching and waiting.

 

[ATH]

Bottomline question most states will ask: Is he an independent contractor or an employee? Employees you will have to pay w/c on, contractor you won't.

While workers comp is not an IRS issue, the IRS rules (linked here) define which he is. I can't imagine too many States would argue that he is a contractor per the IRS, but not state worker's comp.

I'd read these rules, decide which he is, then call whoever makes the rules in your state and ask "If he is an independent contractor per IRS rules, does that automatically mean we don't need to provide coverage for him?".

You need to know how both are going to view you.

 

[Rftreeman]

pay him as an independent and get everything in writing.

 

[juststumps]

We are about to have a climber who carries his own insurance climb for us off and on

do we need to run him on comp or just pay him as a independent


i know this is a gray area


any ideas

i just ran into this...subbed for the boss, when his grinder went down for a few weeks...

he just got a insurance audit... asked me for my liability and workers comp policies...

got liability, but no workers comp... as an owner of a LLC in NJ,, by law i don't need it...

but another sub didn't have WC for 4 months..he has employees... can't produce a certificate...the insurance co wants $9,800 now... for the WC coverage..

by law i don't need it.... but to work in some corprate places, i would have to have it... , i would talk to my agent, instead of asking this question here...
jmho

 

[OLD CHIPMONK]

In Ga. he must carry both w/c & g/l & take care of his own tax liability.
He would operate/manage trims & removals as if he were primary contractor.
He should provide his own equipment or agree, in writing, to rent from primary.
It's still a legal issue & has associated risk to the primary.


Your boss will probably have to fork over the $9800 or face fines. Audits can produce painful results !!!!!!

 

[Adkpk]

Skywalker didn't happen to ask what he is paying for this insurance and what he's covered for did you? Inquiring minds would like to know. Thanks

 

[Skywalker]

its a 1 million dollar policy we live in pa and its what we carry too


he has all his own gear and saws i think were runnin with it

 

[pdqdl]

In Missouri, you are not required to provide worker's comp below a certain number of employees. I think it is three.

That doesn't change the obligation of anyone hiring a small businessman as a subcontractor. If he gets injured on another contractors job, he can sue the primary contractor and get paid under their WC coverage. Because of this, ALL companies get audited by their WC insurance company for their wages paid (to see if they are cheating) and also for matching coverage provided by any subcontractors. If there is no cert of insurance provided by the sub to the primary, the primary contractor pays for WC for the sub, even if the law does not require him to have it.

An interesting side note: An uninsured tree climber, working for himself only, is NOT required by state law to buy worker's comp coverage on himself. If he gets hurt on the job, he can sue the property owner for damages, medical bills, loss of income, etc for any injury occurring on their property. He might even be able to sue them for injuries sustained OFF their property, if he could prove a link between their work and his injury. (say...unloading their logs at the dumpsite.)

Worker's compensation insurance does not insure the injured workers against loss. It protects the employer from losses they would be liable for if an employee is injured "during the scope of their duties".

 

[SustainableTree]

In Oregon you wouldn't have to carry him as an employee as long as his insurance/bond meet your insurance companies requirements. Get a contract in writing in case of issues down the road. I think the main issues happen when you are using your employees as ground guys for him and they get hurt due to something he does, you may have problems with a workers comp claim. It's probably worth a couple of phone calls to L & I and your insurance company. It can work out in your favor for the bottom line but you want to make sure you are above board with the way insurance companies are these days! My two pennies............worth about one penny.

 

[TreeWizard]

The Labor Law requires several things before someone can be considered an independent contractor.

1. Has to be able to set his own hours.
2. Has to work with only general directions about what needs to be done.
a. Project is to be completed in XXXX period of time.
b. project can exceed yyyy budgeted cost.
3. Must not punch a time clock or have set hours.
4. Can only have general supervision.( no boss telling what to do all day)
5. The individual must take care of their own FICA and income tax deductions.

At some later date if the Labor department determines he was not really an independent contractor you will be responsible for all normal fees and deductions as well as UI benefits.

 

[pdqdl]

Those are guidelines, not requirements. If you don't meet enough guidelines, then you are an employee. None of the guidelines you listed should be considered a rule, except the obligation to pay your own FICA & withholding.

For example: I hire a few subcontractors, and they always work WHEN I tell them, and they must do the job HOW I tell them, but most of the other restrictions fit pretty well.

 

[TreeWizard]

Have it as you wish but I spent over 30 years handling Labor Relations and labor law issues for a company with 1800 employees. You can do what you want as long as no one calls you on it.

 

[pdqdl]

Big companies tend to view "guidelines" as regulations, since the employee interpreting the rule is subject to being fired by some upper manager who sees it differently. So... decisions at big companies tend to be rather conservative.

All you have to do is read the IRS's regulations, it is set out pretty clearly.

Start looking here:
http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq/0,,id=199637,00.html
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc762.html

They even have a form to fill out, and they will be happy to make a determination for you: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf

I don't know for sure, but I am confident that all of the 50 states will defer to a decision made by the IRS on this topic.