Competition?

[climberjones]

Iwas just wondering if any one else has had issues with competition or confrontations with other tree companies when starting up your own tree buisiness or working out of town on someone elses turf vandilism etc,,etc...etc,?

 

[jefflovstrom]

Competition is good. Confrontation, vandalism..etc, could lead to an interesting thread. Maybe change the name of the thread.
Jeff

 

[ducaticorse]

Iwas just wondering if any one else has had issues with competition or confrontations with other tree companies when starting up your own tree buisiness or working out of town on someone elses turf vandilism etc,,etc...etc,?

YUP. Only with a turd that worked for me and went off less than half cocked on his own. He screwed with my ignition wires, on my bucket and chipper and stole a drill. He's a total ass though, and already owes the IRS 30K in back taxes from when he had a landscaping company. More of an annoyance than a threat to my business.

 

[sgreanbeans]

We all have had them, most of us still do. Always have hackers creepin by the house. When we run into the other good operations, we have lunch together. When we run into the hacks, we ignore them. Sometimes they will pull up and try to talk shop, we will listen for a minute, that is usually how long it takes before we are tired of it! I ask them if they are still topping tree's and why. That pisses them off. Was told yesterday, about a hack who told my client, that "Arborist just try and justify their cost by telling everybody all that B.S. about the health and care of trees, topping is not bad" My reply was "google it then, see if I am wrong"
Nothing wrong with competition, as long as apples are compared to apples.

 

[imagineero]

I guess I'm one of those 'hacks' because I don't have a truck, a crew, or a chipper ;-)

I'm actually a full time builder and do tree work on the side. I've had a few years in the industry spread out over the last 7 years or so starting with pruning radiata pine plantations for furniture grade pine. Over the years I've tried to upskill and be good at what I do, which at the moment is doing the more technical end of climbed removals. For the guys in my area who run full time tree companies, I guess this is the cream. The prices they charge are ridiculous, AU$10k~$15k for a single (addmittedly large and technical) radiatia pine removal without a crane is not unheard of.

I take these jobs on and do them mostly the long way. I don't have a bucket truck, winches etc, just lots and lots of ropes, pulleys, chainsaws, a saddle, spikes and time. I employ backpackers for a reasonable wage and take the lot to the tip in a trailer. A really huge pine might take me 4 or 5 days with a 2 man crew. smaller stuff I can take down 6 ro 7 in a day.

The other tree guys take it pretty hard. They're openly aggressive towards me and slander me at every opportunity. I haven't had any outright confrontations, but I havent come across another tree guy bigger than me yet either ;-) I do lock my saws up, and I don't trash talk my competition; I think its very unprofessional. I've walked away from a few jobs, or referred clients to other companies who I knew had the gear to handle it. Nobody in my area who has a chipper will come to chip wood for me. I guess they'd rather be sitting in the workshop drinking coffee. Chipper rates are $300/hour in my area.

Shaun

 

[treeman75]

I guess I'm one of those 'hacks' because I don't have a truck, a crew, or a chipper ;-)

I'm actually a full time builder and do tree work on the side. I've had a few years in the industry spread out over the last 7 years or so starting with pruning radiata pine plantations for furniture grade pine. Over the years I've tried to upskill and be good at what I do, which at the moment is doing the more technical end of climbed removals. For the guys in my area who run full time tree companies, I guess this is the cream. The prices they charge are ridiculous, AU$10k~$15k for a single (addmittedly large and technical) radiatia pine removal without a crane is not unheard of.

I take these jobs on and do them mostly the long way. I don't have a bucket truck, winches etc, just lots and lots of ropes, pulleys, chainsaws, a saddle, spikes and time. I employ backpackers for a reasonable wage and take the lot to the tip in a trailer. A really huge pine might take me 4 or 5 days with a 2 man crew. smaller stuff I can take down 6 ro 7 in a day.

The other tree guys take it pretty hard. They're openly aggressive towards me and slander me at every opportunity. I haven't had any outright confrontations, but I havent come across another tree guy bigger than me yet either ;-) I do lock my saws up, and I don't trash talk my competition; I think its very unprofessional. I've walked away from a few jobs, or referred clients to other companies who I knew had the gear to handle it. Nobody in my area who has a chipper will come to chip wood for me. I guess they'd rather be sitting in the workshop drinking coffee. Chipper rates are $300/hour in my area.

Shaun

There are a couple of part timers here. They have full time jobs with benefits so they dont have to pay much for health care. They probly have a retirement package too. I have equipment costs, bucket, chipper, loader, insurance and the list goes on. I have bid against them and the home owner looks at me like im crazy. I am always double, I try to sell them proper tree care somtimes they listen. I tell them to call another pro to get a bid and I will be within a couple hundred. They are HACKS and I dont talk to them. Most of the tree guys here are ruff and arent scared to fight and it does happen.

 

[ropensaddle]

I have found that showing up in a baseball uniform and using a ball bat can secure your area lol. :monkey:

 

[husabud]

Some may call me a hack or a wanna be, but I consider myself neither. I was trained by an arborist in colo in the early 90s. When I moved back to the east coast I went into the building trade for lack of tree work. I've been doing that for 16 years with removals (mostly) as some extra spending money. Last year I decided to get back into it, so I bought a truck and chipper a couple more ropes another climbing saw and a new harness. I want to be safe and do this the right way. I never did anything about Arborist cert. but now I am thinking about it. Some of my competitors give me the "hairy eyeball", some wave, and some just drive on by. I think honest competition is good for business and keeps it fair for the HO. If you're sanford and son with no insurance or overhead, you're gonna be cheaper. I climb do groundwork, estimate, wrench on my own equip, everything.
It's good that I did this last year BTW, All my carpentry tools were stolen last week, from my front yard.

 

[beastmaster]

I often wonder if I'm a hack. I do what I can to support my family. I have a lot of hack symptoms. I only have a small Mazda pick up, I advertise on creigs list. I have no insurance, and all my equipment is old.
I mostly work for several different local companys on a job by job basis. I am real particular who I work for and that causes me problems. Just cause a Company has Arborist on the side of their truck or has nice shiny equipment or a 650.00 a month yellow page ad doesn't mean squat
When a home Owner hires me their going to get the finest tree care possible at any price.
I've been ridiculed, and threatened, a time or two by big Companys(mostly gardeners), and I turn the other cheek, but it that doesn't work well I'm old school and have the scars on my fist to prove it. Usually all it takes is for them to drive back by later and see my work to shut them up.

 

[Rftreeman]

I have found that people who are scared of the small guy often call them hacks and talk down on them, I just laugh at it. I went to bid a job once and when I got there there was a guy from one of the biggest companies in town there bidding also so I just drove around the block in my old Chevy truck and waited till he was gone. I went back wrote up the bid and left it at the predetermined spot for client to get once they came home, well, I got the job and the day I was doing it guess who rides by, stops and gets out wanting to see who the hack was that cut his throat asking about insurance and such, telling me I can't be making any money cause he bid the job to break even and so on, I listened for a minute then then fired the ole 394xp back up and started cutting again, He mumbled something and got in his truck and left...

 

[D_Sully]

why does everyone have to be so hostile?!? we all are just trying to have dinner tonite arent we? Maybe part of the trimmer training should be deer hunting so you dont have to be so mad when you dont get the job. Just go kill a deer and eat like a king

 

[ducaticorse]

I have found that showing up in a baseball uniform and using a ball bat can secure your area lol. :monkey:

or a hummer with a quad .50 mounted on top....

 

[ducaticorse]

I often wonder if I'm a hack. I do what I can to support my family. I have a lot of hack symptoms. I only have a small Mazda pick up, I advertise on creigs list. I have no insurance, and all my equipment is old.
I mostly work for several different local companys on a job by job basis. I am real particular who I work for and that causes me problems. Just cause a Company has Arborist on the side of their truck or has nice shiny equipment or a 650.00 a month yellow page ad doesn't mean squat
When a home Owner hires me their going to get the finest tree care possible at any price.
I've been ridiculed, and threatened, a time or two by big Companys(mostly gardeners), and I turn the other cheek, but it that doesn't work well I'm old school and have the scars on my fist to prove it. Usually all it takes is for them to drive back by later and see my work to shut them up.

See, the problem with your statement is that you say you have no insurance, but also provide the best possible tree service at the same time. This just cannot be true.

The largest purpose for insurance is to cover the the HO, and yourself during unseesn, unplanned misfortunes, that can hit the best of us at any time. When you step foot on a HO's property and carry no insurance, you put your life in danger, and you put the lifestyle of the homeowner in danger. It's totally irresponsible. Who's to say you won't sue them for your med bills when you get hurt. Who's to say your familly won't sue them for loss of income when you die? It's a responsibility thing, and it's a major part of being a legitimate tree service provider.

Carrying no insurance, and doing this work is just plain dumb IMHO, and it should be frowned apon by everyone. But it goes both ways, as the HO should take the responsibility not to hire uninsured workers in the first place.

 

[Blakesmaster]

why does everyone have to be so hostile?!? we all are just trying to have dinner tonite arent we? Maybe part of the trimmer training should be deer hunting so you dont have to be so mad when you dont get the job. Just go kill a deer and eat like a king

I didn't pick up on any hostility yet. If you did then you got a lot to learn about how hostile tree guys who are being stolen from can get.

This is astounding the amount of hacks posting in this, a commercial climbers forum. Disgusting and repulsive. From guys that don't have a single clue what they're doing ( but think they do ) to scum of the earth lowballers with no insurance who seem proud of the old "I'm just trying to support my family" and can't afford insurance bull####. Insurance is dirt ####ing cheap and if you can't afford it it's probably 'cause you're a halfway retarded moron who shouldn't be doing this work in the first place.

Here's a ####ing idea.

If you can't afford insurance, raise your ####### prices! Maybe then you won't destroy the ####ing market with your #### quotes.

I got no problem with part timers or guys with minimal equipment just starting out as long as you're insured and know what you're doing. Problem is most aren't...and don't. It's normally "jack of all" loser ass wannabees that ain't good enough at their chosen trade and want to make money on the side because hey ain't good enough at what they do to make a living.

You "handymen" are ####ing laughable. You just a bunch of unemployable jackasses that couldn't get a job doing anything other than flipping burgers so you take advantage of trusting and uninformed homeowners to their detriment and concurrently #### up the market for all the skilled tradesmen you're stealing work from.

Normally this #### don't piss me off but it's annoying how much time and money I have to invest into marketing and salesmanship to make my company and our abilities stand out from you yahoos. Most customers will never know the difference till they see a real operation work and it's your fault, you piece of ####, low balling hacks. Because of you and the droves of other #######s like you, most home owner's believe your inferior "skills", your uninsured "business", your "I cut trees for my brother one time" "qualifications" are the status quo for our industry.

#### you. You've already ####ed up the market where you live for the legit guys, the least you can do is get the #### off our forum, hang your ####### head down like the lying thief you are and go about your life without bothering us in our house.

 

[Rftreeman]

I don't get to jacked up over stuff like this anymore but I will get a bit ticked if the person knowingly cuts my throat and they know me, you can't and never will get ever job you bid, there will always be the cheap bastard h/o that will hire the lowest bid regardless of their credentials, it happens in ever skilled trade there is...

I have a very low overhead (yes I'm insured) so my bid may be a lot lower than the big company that needs $2000.00 a day to make it but does that make me a "lowballer" because I can do a job for less than that big company...

 

[ozzy42]

But tell us how you really feel BM.
Just kidding.I agree with a lot of what you said.
HOs are just as much to blame a lot of times.
I just ####ing love it when Joe HO says his lawnman can do that for half of my price.
No #### sherlock.I don't know why those types even bother calling for bids if they're going to let a lawn jockey have at it anyway.

 

[ducaticorse]

I didn't pick up on any hostility yet. If you did then you got a lot to learn about how hostile tree guys who are being stolen from can get.

This is astounding the amount of hacks posting in this, a commercial climbers forum. Disgusting and repulsive. From guys that don't have a single clue what they're doing ( but think they do ) to scum of the earth lowballers with no insurance who seem proud of the old "I'm just trying to support my family" and can't afford insurance bull####. Insurance is dirt ####ing cheap and if you can't afford it it's probably 'cause you're a halfway retarded moron who shouldn't be doing this work in the first place.

Here's a ####ing idea.

If you can't afford insurance, raise your ####### prices! Maybe then you won't destroy the ####ing market with your #### quotes.

I got no problem with part timers or guys with minimal equipment just starting out as long as you're insured and know what you're doing. Problem is most aren't...and don't. It's normally "jack of all" loser ass wannabees that ain't good enough at their chosen trade and want to make money on the side because hey ain't good enough at what they do to make a living.

You "handymen" are ####ing laughable. You just a bunch of unemployable jackasses that couldn't get a job doing anything other than flipping burgers so you take advantage of trusting and uninformed homeowners to their detriment and concurrently #### up the market for all the skilled tradesmen you're stealing work from.

Normally this #### don't piss me off but it's annoying how much time and money I have to invest into marketing and salesmanship to make my company and our abilities stand out from you yahoos. Most customers will never know the difference till they see a real operation work and it's your fault, you piece of ####, low balling hacks. Because of you and the droves of other #######s like you, most home owner's believe your inferior "skills", your uninsured "business", your "I cut trees for my brother one time" "qualifications" are the status quo for our industry.

#### you. You've already ####ed up the market where you live for the legit guys, the least you can do is get the #### off our forum, hang your ####### head down like the lying thief you are and go about your life without bothering us in our house.

Amen brother Blakes

 

[Blakesmaster]

HOs are just as much to blame a lot of times.

It's hard for me to blame the HO's when these yahoos are so prevalent in our industry. I pick up the phone book to call a plumber I will generally take it for granted that he's insured, and i definitely wouldn't know what type of insurance he's SUPPOSED to carry, I simply expect that if he's advertising "fully insured" then he is. You know how many times a year I get asked for proof of insurance? City, state, and commercial contracts aside, maybe 5 or 6 times. 50% of the "tree co's" around here carry landscrapers insurance at best because they can get away with it. The public is generally trusting and the hack losers prey on this and take advantage of it. It's THEIR fault. The fact that there's so many of them makes it seem normal to the unknowing homeowner.

 

[ducaticorse]

It's hard for me to blame the HO's when these yahoos are so prevalent in our industry. I pick up the phone book to call a plumber I will generally take it for granted that he's insured, and i definitely wouldn't know what type of insurance he's SUPPOSED to carry, I simply expect that if he's advertising "fully insured" then he is. You know how many times a year I get asked for proof of insurance? City, state, and commercial contracts aside, maybe 5 or 6 times. 50% of the "tree co's" around here carry landscrapers insurance at best because they can get away with it. The public is generally trusting and the hack losers prey on this and take advantage of it. It's THEIR fault. The fact that there's so many of them makes it seem normal to the unknowing homeowner.

I made this exact point about HO's earlier this year on here. None of them ask for insurance, it's absurd. There are so many guys on CL that I've called to see if they are really carrying the insurance they advertise, and MOST of them don't. They just gamble that the HO won't call them out. IT PISSES ME OFF TO NO END.

Whenever I get an inquiry generated from CL now, I have a pre-written info letter that goes out explaining the importance of insurance, the type of insurances a tree removal service must carry, and workman's comp. EVREYONE gets a briefing.

THE BEST is when they hand me an estimate for me to beat written from one of the uninsured scabs aforementioned above. I love telling them they got bold faced lied to, and to call the insurance companies of the hack that gave them the estimate. Sure as #### when they do, I get a call back, I get hired and my price stands.

As said before in this forum, I hate government regulation, but perhaps it's time to defend the small business owners that do the right thing day in, and day out only to get their throats cut by the uninsured masses. It would be super easy for the DIA to just call som of the CL clowns, get them to a jobsite, and slap the #### out of them with a $500 a day fine per person on the crew till you get workman's comp bound properly. Hell!, the law is already on the books here in MA, all they have to do is enforce it!!! That would put 99 percent of the CL hustlers out of business instantly.

 

[ropensaddle]

Hey this gives me an idea. I am going to change my advertising. Hack for hire,non insured wanna be tree man with pickup and saw"will travel" get r done pricing upon request! I can fall any tree cheaper than anyone,"not responsible for damage even though we seldom miss our target" 30" tree 150.00 no clean-up. We'll take a chance for you.