core sampling a removal before climbing?

[blewgrass]

been working a number of removals for a homeowner and got a bit of a surprise. after climbing a big birch to take some branches out to keep the surrounding trees from getting damaged in the felling i rappelled and began my notch. first couple of inches was good green wood and then the surprise came. nothing but dust in the heartwood. i'd say out of the 22" diameter there was probably a 4" ring of good wood surrounding a core of packed wood dust. there was still enough wood to support the tree and i was surprised at how little the rot was manifested in the mostly healthy canopy. the hinge was a little dicey to say the least, but i think from now on i might try and running a drill bit into the heartwood on any removals i might have a question about. just see what's in there before i get up there.

 

[BCMA]

If you do not have a drill and bit with you at the time, and you have serious questions as to how much holding wood you have to work with, a boring cut at various locations will give you the needed information pretty quickly. Check the quality of the saw dust. If your saw suddenly plunges into the tree with little or no resistance, you know that you have troubles. Be sure you do your boring cuts where they will not interfere with your face and back-cut.

 

[oldirty]

good answer

 

[clearance]

Also

Good answer, but make sure the bar is straight up. Now, imagine if you were lowering big chunks or logs off that same tree, another reason why I never ever do that. Maybe it good where you bored, maybe it ain't so nice 20' up.

 

[oldirty]

Good answer, but make sure the bar is straight up. Now, imagine if you were lowering big chunks or logs off that same tree, another reason why I never ever do that. Maybe it good where you bored, maybe it ain't so nice 20' up.

spoken like a grizzled vet. wow man. i hadnt thought of that.

thanks.

 

[clearance]

spoken like a grizzled vet. wow man. i hadnt thought of that.

thanks.

Are you psycic or something, I haven't shaved for days, I look like bum.

 

[oldirty]

lol. i would think it odd if you were clean shaven, all them conifers you got out there.

 

[Adkpk]

spoken like a grizzled vet. wow man. i hadnt thought of that.

thanks.

It's all I ever think of. This is why I am studying for the ISA exam. Whether I pass or not I find when tempting nature you can never know enough.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I'll bore from time to tiem, but mostly I will sound the tree with a mallet or the back of my hatchet.

Then when I am climbing I will listen and watch ho it looks as I gaff up. Also watch where the tree moves as you go higher. If the moment of bend is not in the natural place, say very near the basal flair, then an adjacent tie in or other manner of removal may be needed.

I've walked from trees where after the fact I'm told it was still solid. C'est la vie.

I've also pulled trees over with a throwline that people asked me to climb.

Knowing how a tree handles decay is another thing, I am always more worried with fast growers (r vs K strategies) such as birch, poplar, willow; then oak, maple, ash.

I'm talking stem rot, not butt rot here.

 

[Mikecutstrees]

I'll bore from time to tiem, but mostly I will sound the tree with a mallet or the back of my hatchet.

Then when I am climbing I will listen and watch ho it looks as I gaff up. Also watch where the tree moves as you go higher. If the moment of bend is not in the natural place, say very near the basal flair, then an adjacent tie in or other manner of removal may be needed.

I've walked from trees where after the fact I'm told it was still solid. C'est la vie.

I've also pulled trees over with a throwline that people asked me to climb.

Knowing how a tree handles decay is another thing, I am always more worried with fast growers (r vs K strategies) such as birch, poplar, willow; then oak, maple, ash.

I'm talking stem rot, not butt rot here.

Excellent advise here. A knowledge of trees and what types and how they decay is key. Look for abnormal bumps and bulges of the trunk, usually indicates a cavity especially in sugar maples, also areas where water can enter such as where the trunk forks or where an old branch broke out can be indicators of decay.Also foliage is not a good indicator of decay always. A tree only needs a few millimaters of live wood to support a full crown of foliage....... Mike

 

[clearance]

Once I climbed a very healthy looking Western Hemolock, about 28" dbh and about 80' tall. It looked really nice, the people wanted it gone, whatever, I am just an employee. Never though about checking, just strip and chunk, as soon as I cut off the top I could see there was rot. In fact the tree was like a pipe, the pipe being solid wood, the whole inside was a step away from punky.
If one was to lower big wood from this tree, it could well have been fatal, it supported me, but think about it.

 

[treeseer]

Sounds like a bore cut is the last method of assessment to use.

 

[BCMA]

Sounds like a bore cut is the last method of assessment to use.

Second to last. Only to be used on trees to be removed to check for heart-rot and the holding capacity of the hinge. The last assessment is to dissect the tree to learn more about structure, CODIT, wood decay, etc.

 

[1I'dJak]

Recently I learned a few things about the physics of dead trees, having done some research for a biologist. I climbed wildlife trees that had cavity nests is them and would drill and measure how much sound wood the tree had. Needless to say many of them were sketchy pos....I found that the stregth of a tree is in the cylinder....Trees with heartrot were much more stable than trees with heartrot...many of the trees with heartrot felt like i could break 'em by just rocking back and forth...

 

[Mitchell]

dodged this bullet myself

... In fact the tree was like a pipe, the pipe being solid wood, the whole inside was a step away from punky.
If one was to lower big wood from this tree, it could well have been fatal, it supported me, but think about it.

I feel pretty comfortable accessing the average tree for potential problems by feel by tapping or "wiggling it" but what has me thrown me a few times are the the big old growth stuff with thick bark. case in point...

Three months ago I went to check out a hedging job and was rebuffed for trying to point out the problem he was looking at with a couple big [5 dbh 160 +] old growth rapidly dying firs over his house drop and driveway. When he said they could not be done with out damaging stuff "so better to leave them!" I offered to throw them down in smaller pieces or rig them out to avoid the power, new water line and other landscaping features. Last thing I said about after being dismissed was "I really don't want to be called after they have partially collapsed leaving big structural issues in the trees..."

Last week I received the call [from his wife] that one of them had lost its top. Here is a couple pics of the tree. Had I gone up to rig I hope I would have noticed the termite colony at about 130' that caused the fracture that blew the top 40' off last week in a minor wind event.

Its hard to access these trees from the ground this tree being still green to 60' and fully green a few years ago I thought would be relatively safe to rig off of if needed.

this what the rounds from the top looked like good bit of rot

the tree was left with a massive widow maker rocking above me. I made my way up to set a bull rope to pull it off its lean to the power.

What the tree looked like after I topped it right over the water line but that was all I was willing to do after seeing the rot in the top [and his budget]. I surmised the 70 foot section would quarter rotate impacting itself into the ground beyond the water line and settle back unto it with less force then giant rounds pounding down for half a day. I was basically right, the top buried about three feet but the but still settled a foot into the ground, all was well however.

A picture to show perspective, the tree was very solid and still over three feet here. I had to climb back up to get my wedges and was hollering for a saw to clean up the snipes.

Any rate, any tips on accessing the 500+ year old tight grained trees would be appreciated. I have miss judged a couple that if they were smaller second growth I would have known immediately what was up with the first wack of the axe.

 

[Mitchell]

not to derial the thread to far

part of accessing the tree for removal would be accessing the trees in the area. As you can see in the pics most all of the fir trees are rapidly dying back and the trend is found in a couple square mile area. any thoughts on what might be taking out old mature trees this fast would be appreciated. There is root rot, bark beetles and termites in the area [but there always is]. As I will no doubt be dealing with many more of trees in this area any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[oldirty]

you need to photoshop the one with you hollering on top. brighten it up a little. put it in the office on the wall.

sweet pics for sure.

good stuff.

 

[BCMA]

part of accessing the tree for removal would be accessing the trees in the area. As you can see in the pics most all of the fir trees are rapidly dying back and the trend is found in a couple square mile area. any thoughts on what might be taking out old mature trees this fast would be appreciated. There is root rot, bark beetles and termites in the area [but there always is]. As I will no doubt be dealing with many more of trees in this area any thoughts would be appreciated.

Without being on site to inspect the trees it is going to be a shot in the dark to give suggestions as to the problems with the trees. Assessing a mature stand of trees for their health and risk, and have any accuracy to your assessment will take some experience in many fields of study.

Concerning assessing the trees for the health or decline, I would suggest contacting local experts such as a qualified forester, pathologist, entomologist, etc. The forest service my have an expert in your area on old growth tree physiology.

Fulfilling the role as a risk assessor is another art and science. The ISA has printed articles on risk assessment and managing risk in Arborist News. This is a subject has gotten a lot of attention lately, and I believe that we will see some standards on this subject soon. The ISA-PNW chapter has a risk assessment certification available, and there is other published information and websites available.

 

[clearance]

Good job Mitchell.
I see a lot of dead and dying Doug. fir, up the Fraser Canyon, east of Lillooet, not a good thing, especially with the pine beetle epidemic. I hear its root rot and an insect.

 

[oldirty]

sounds like you boys got some work cut out for you up there.