Crane tip-over.

[Hoister]

welcome, hoister. I've missed the last few days here. Lots of good talk!

Here's video of the recovery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8HG7r96bBk

And, I joined this forum and made this post:
***********************************/Forum/showthread.php?t=15430&page=3

Certainly some knowledgable/experienced guys there, but I think the discussion here is better.

Yup not a bad site ..lots of guys in there from various different fields ..some are crane guy's others have a very good idea but not much practical experience ....I see some of it ..but dont let that bother you.. some of these guys that post would blow me out of the water on earth moving equipment..there all operator's and we all share to a greater or lesser extent the responsibilities associated with running a piece of equipment
Some are passonate about their work other's cocky,,

LOL ..I think the discussion here is to tree related ..

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

Some are passonate about their work other's cocky,,

I think one naturally follows the other.

 

[treevet]

LOL ..I think the discussion here is to tree related ..

I think you prob are kidding......but do you do any tree work?

 

[Sparky8370]

I have seen cranes lifting a lot heavier stuff than that. Amazing what the shock load will do.

 

[treevet]

I have seen cranes lifting a lot heavier stuff than that. Amazing what the shock load will do.

Tree guys live with shock loads every day when rigging if not craning. Crane ops prob not expecting it as much.

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

I have seen cranes lifting a lot heavier stuff than that. Amazing what the shock load will do.

Reminds me of the phrase I just taught my 3yrold Grandson when he dropped something from the table and started to cry, I said, boy, don't cry just say damn Gravity, He instantly lost the tears and obliged Im gonna love this Grandpa thing.


till they call me to explain at the school

 

[jomoco]

If the idiot crane operator had put his counterweights on, the accident would not have happened. The climber was an idiot for not knowing that as much as the CO.

The main booms of a modern hydrocrane are heavy, that's why they have counterweights following them down the freeways on a separate semi!

jomoco

 

[rbtree]

Back away there, jomoco. They probably didn't order the crane as a 175.......it's cheaper, you know, when it's rated lower.

Originally, many of us thought the crane was a 75. We were 100 tons off. We also thought the CW's were sitting on the flatbed...but were prolly wrong.

Read the perspective of the crane op's who joined in...and maybe go to that heavy equipment forum.

Main problem was the way the cut was made, as a few tree guys here have surmised, myself included in a post at that forum, which I linked to here.

There was also good reason for the jib to be on, as is explained over there as well. Surprised me, but there's a hell of a lot I don't know about cranes.

 

[jomoco]

Back away there, jomoco. They probably didn't order the crane as a 175.......it's cheaper, you know, when it's rated lower.

Originally, many of us thought the crane was a 75. We were 100 tons off. We also thought the CW's were sitting on the flatbed...but were prolly wrong.

Read the perspective of the crane op's who joined in...and maybe go to that heavy equipment forum.

Main problem was the way the cut was made, as a few tree guys here have surmised, myself included in a post at that forum, which I linked to here.

There was also good reason for the jib to be on, as is explained over there as well. Surprised me, but there's a hell of a lot I don't know about cranes.

I've worked lots of very big trees down with a 120 ton hydrocrane RB, and it always had a full set of counterweights on it each time. The smallest hydrocrane I could get with a single operator was a 70 ton with no counterweights for light stuff.

It's the setup time and extra truck and rigger that limits you to 6 hours of productive crane time using the bigger cranes.

I am curious as to which of the two trunk cuts visible in the pics brought the crane down? The smaller uppermost cut with the funky lip on it? Or the bigger lower lateral facing the house?

It's very obvious from the pics of the crane that no counterweights were on it other than it's fixed travel counterweight plate.

Are you saying he could jib out that far on a 5 axle crane that big with no counterweights and not be an idiot RB?

jomoco

 

[ROOTSXROCKS]

o I reposted these pictures in the other thread with a close up that show the last big piece that is sitting hear the boom

It appears from these last pictures of the cutting that he did not do a back cut on that big piece tha

this last pic before the crane fell

and the last piece that made it over successfully

the one that caused the tipping

It was too big of a piece, and too much slack to allow it to fall away from the house without a back cut or hinge to slow the momentum.

Id blame the person that tied it on and cut it. Is the crane operator to view and approve every cut ?

 

[jomoco]

I aint buyin it RB, can you hook me up with a link to these CO's forum sayin it's cool to jib out a 175 ton hydrocrane with no counterweights please?

Now it's turned into more than just a funky cut, cuz there's somethin funky goin on with other CO's defending this guy's operation.

jomoco

 

[outofmytree]

It becomes clearer now doesnt it. Large piece with weight well past the centre of lift so that even if it lifted off clean it would pull the boom down and away from the crane. But without the proper cut its resistance becomes equivalent to far greater weight and the resultant force when it snaps is again away from the crane. The reports of the piece bouncing and then the crane going over fit in quite nicely.

The climber made a giant mistake here in firstly using only 1 sling where 2 was the safer choice and secondly not ensuring the cut was certain to snap. The only other question I have is if the crane op can't see the piece being lifted is he still at fault? That is, over here, the crane op is the ultimate authority on site when lifting. Is it the same over there?

At least this was only monetary damage......

 

[treevet]

It becomes clearer now doesnt it. Large piece with weight well past the centre of lift so that even if it lifted off clean it would pull the boom down and away from the crane. But without the proper cut its resistance becomes equivalent to far greater weight and the resultant force when it snaps is again away from the crane. The reports of the piece bouncing and then the crane going over fit in quite nicely.

The climber made a giant mistake here in firstly using only 1 sling where 2 was the safer choice and secondly not ensuring the cut was certain to snap. The only other question I have is if the crane op can't see the piece being lifted is he still at fault? That is, over here, the crane op is the ultimate authority on site when lifting. Is it the same over there?

At least this was only monetary damage......

I agree. There was a lot of holding wood to force off and everyone that does crane/tree work has seen a sudden detachment cause "bouncing" and then shockload to a little or great extent. Esp. on large stump cuts. That jib may have to have been installed to pick canopy beyond the trunk from the unit. IMO it was the holding wood that initiated this accident and the cut was made to, in his mind, cover his own ass if failure occurred. Many accidents happen in an end of the day let's finish up we're all tired scenario.

By this expanded pict. one see that it WAS that piece that brought the crane down as it still has chokers on it. It is also clear that the cut was made by the climber on the same side that the boom came down next to the tree. Musta been a scary situation to avert getting crushed as to where to go.

No need to be calling anyone idiots. But you can kind of expect it from the person doing the calling. This was a huge and highly technical removal done expertly up to that point that I sincerely doubt the person doing the condescending has ever attempted.

I am of the opinion that despite many arbs. talking all kind of big removals, likely only roughly maybe 5% of the people in the phone book or in an area of operation or posting on forums, etc.........

actually do the biggest nastiest removals on a regular basis.

It is up to the customer to find those people.....so a little of the blame lies on that end as well......"Let the buyer beware".

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It is up to the customer to find those people.....so a little of the blame lies on that end as well......"Let the buyer beware".

Only if they went with the lowest bid on the job

 

[treevet]

Only if they went with the lowest bid on the job

Why? If they went with the highest bid and did not check references or shop then they still ended up in this spot.

In the best scenario both the op and the climber and the crew are highly experienced, sober and capable that day. They all have a long established history with these kind of td's together and they communicate with each other on walkie talkies.

Gotta go to work

 

[outofmytree]

I wonder if the climber was actually in the tree when the pick was made or if he had climbed out before giving the all clear to lift. I have reviewed the photo's and on the last one shown he was tied in twice which makes getting out of Dodge much harder when it all went wrong. It is my guess that he made the cut, perhaps with a wedge or even a twig in the cut as TV does, got out of the tree and signalled to the OP to lift all the while assuming the oak would snap. There is a reason why oaks have been used for structural wood for thousands of years....

One other thing I was curious about. I can only see 1 sling in the photo which means that even with a perfect cut there was going to be motion and therefore force away from the crane. On the few crane jobs I have done we rig most cuts with 2 slings so the pick, wherever possible, rises straight up from the cut rather than swinging one way or another.

 

[jomoco]

You guys are crackin me up here!

We have a crushed house, a 175 ton crane on it's ear, no counterweights, doing major trunk picks with a jib?

And no idiots involved you say?

jomoco

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I wonder if the climber was actually in the tree when the pick was made or if he had climbed out before giving the all clear to lift.

One interview stated that the boom passed by him just a foot or so away.

Soooo much guessing going on

And no idiots involved you say?

Not me!

 

[Hoister]

You guys are crackin me up here!

We have a crushed house, a 175 ton crane on it's ear, no counterweights, doing major trunk picks with a jib?

And no idiots involved you say?

jomoco

There are counter weights on that crane ..Approx 24000 lbs of it ..

It was rented out at a lesser capacity unit ..its done all the time ..

Ive also run units where out of 80,000+lbs of stone I had 40,000 on with both swing aways on ..perfectly legitamate..On some units 0 counter weight ..and a jib , half outriggers and jib chart, outrigger all in and down

A handy little 60 ton I ran had a chart for
110 main
56' jib@45deg offset
0 counter weight
At 115 feet over the side I was still good for 1400lbs gross capacity ..


These cranes you keep talking about ..year ,make and model ?..just curoius

 

[jomoco]

There are counter weights on that crane ..Approx 24000 lbs of it ..

It was rented out at a lesser capacity unit ..its done all the time ..

Ive also run units where out of 80,000+lbs of stone I had 40,000 on with both swing aways on ..perfectly legitamate..On some units 0 counter weight ..and a jib , half outriggers and jib chart, outrigger all in and down

A handy little 60 ton I ran had a chart for
110 main
56' jib@45deg offset
0 counter weight
At 115 feet over the side I was still good for 1400lbs gross capacity ..


These cranes you keep talking about ..year ,make and model ?..just curoius

That's my point Hoister, that section of trunk probably weighed between 3-4K lbs, kinda greedy when you're jibbed out with no counterweights even with a 175.

A 175 can lift more further out than a 120 granted, but not without it's counterweights on and functioning.

You're saying it's cool to pick 2 tons jibbed out with no counterweights on that crane?

The evidence indicates otherwise my friend.

If ind it interesting that everytime I've removed large trees with a 120, 175 or 300 ton crane, they've invariably had their counterweighjts on.

I've never used a crane over 70 tons without counterweights period, and I don't recall any of the good CCO's I've ever worked with doing any such thing other than when they're putting their weights on.

jomoco