Crane Two Lightning Struck Trees

[treevet]

Could bracing have kept it together for the owners' lives?

No, it happened late afternoon, we arrived at dusk. Split was over 12 feet long and through the stem. The tree fell over a couple of hours later in the dark. We coulda saved them a roof with quick action tho.

Shouldn't the owners be the determiners?

They were.

first pic is an oak in germany that was hit, traced, and sealed with Lac Balsam 12+ years ago. but we should never use pruning paint, qouth the craven maven, Nevermore, oh no! :censored:

Bark tracing and tree paint.....:welcome: You still on that, You do yourself discredit as someone that passed the 150 question multiple choice test.

Can't read the article you linked print is too small.

 

[mckeetree]

Can't read the article you linked print is too small.

See that little plus sign at the top. Click on it.

 

[mckeetree]

Bark tracing and tree paint.....:welcome: You still on that, You do yourself discredit as someone that passed the 150 question multiple choice test.

Hey, he thinks he knows everything. He might not but that old cat is pretty sharp on the tree deal.

 

[outofmytree]

first pic is an oak in germany that was hit, traced, and sealed with Lac Balsam 12+ years ago. but we should never use pruning paint, qouth the craven maven, Nevermore, oh no! :censored:

Hmmm. Wound paint? I guess you could also fill with concrete and if the tree didn't fail than that would be ok too?

Thats just my knee jerk reaction to both the statement and the picture. I do not profess to have even 1/10th of your tree knowledge Guy, but I feel very uneasy about the above.

 

[treeseer]

sorry for the derail, tk.

Hey all i know is what i saw in the picture, and trust in the history of the tree as told by the picture-taker, who drives by it every day. It just seems to poke a hole in the taboo :taped: against sealants.

Never mind--I'm still trying to find a good picture of a lightning system--they are so big it's hard to get an image of one. ran across that in the hunt.

So anyway these systems are a harder sell because of tree benefits in idaho with its monocultures of big trees, but still perhaps saleable based on sparing the home the damage. A different world up there--sure is pretty though.

 

[D Mc]

Great job, BCMA. I like your small 4-wheel drive, efficient outfits. I like the 100% recycling. The reasons and techniques you mention are the same in our area also.

Sorry to add to the derail, but just because the sealants/paints we have used in the past did not meet some expectations does not mean this is an area that should lack research. I feel we, as an industry, have really dropped the research ball on this due to peer pressure and fear of being ridiculed.

Dave

 

[treevet]

Sorry to add to the derail, but just because the sealants/paints we have used in the past did not meet some expectations does not mean this is an area that should lack research. I feel we, as an industry, have really dropped the research ball on this due to peer pressure and fear of being ridiculed.

Dave

I couldn't respectfully disagree more. Scads of research done on tree paint/sealant which was found not only to not do anything beneficial, it also does a negative, namely creates a haven for pathogens in a dark dank protected environment conducive to growth underneath it. Some inhibit wound closure.

Guy has a tendency to question these old established and researched issues maybe to hopefully be an innovator as it is difficult to get there from research if you do not have time and equipment and scientific ways to do it. Giant stubs are ok, Fertilizing weak and sick trees is ok, tree paint is ok, leaving deadwood in trees is ok, flush cuts are ok, new, unresearched cable system ok, etc etc....... Let's take what we have gained and move forward and find a cure/answer for DED, ALB, EAB, VWilt, etc. etc.

Also Shigo's biggest pet peeve was the fact that mankind could heap injury and mistreatments on trees and all would be waved away with a magic tree paint wand.

 

[D Mc]

I couldn't respectfully disagree more. Scads of research done on tree paint/sealant which was found not only to not do anything beneficial, it also does a negative, namely creates a haven for pathogens in a dark dank protected environment conducive to growth underneath it. Some inhibit wound closure.

This is exactly my point. The research you base your reaction on was of studies of products available at that time not what is possible. Why should we have an inate fear of sealing in pathogens and all the doom and gloom that that image represents. When a tree is injured what does it do to protect itself? Does it heal? No. It seals. This is the tree's strongest response to protecting itself. Is the tree wrong?

I don't profess to have the answer to this, just that I see an area of research that is being neglected.

Dave

 

[treevet]

Does it heal? No.

Dave

compartmentalizes

 

[BCMA]

Excuss me...may I cut in on this dance?

I don’t think anyone here is espousing that tree paint is going to wash away injury or mistreatment to a tree. I think we would all agree that tree paint is unnecessary in most cases.

At the same time we need to continue to think about our standard procedures and try to find a better way. There is so much we do not know about trees and how they function. I’m not going to rule out a particular treatment because it was determined it did not work in the past. There are too many variables to place oneself in a box.

I have actually been thinking about doing some independent research on tree wound sealants myself. I have available a perfect test plot where a highway district butchered about fifty lindens. Multiple large ripping cuts, stubs, flush cuts, etc. The trees are over a hundred years old. My challenge is I do not have the time.

The theory is if we can seal the wound so that oxygen cannot get to the cells, can we slow or stop decay. Yes, the trees have the ability to compartmentalize decay (CODIT), but do we have other options? Not all trees are good at compartmentalizing. Not all trees have the energy reserve to perform this function. I have actually been thinking how trees would respond to covering a wound or large pruning cut with Elmer’s Glue.

Even though I do not use wound paint or fill cavities with concrete, I do not want to rule out my options and close my mind to new or old ideas.

 

[treevet]

Excuss me...may I cut in on this dance?

I don’t think anyone here is espousing that tree paint is going to wash away injury or mistreatment to a tree.

I do.

I’m not going to rule out a particular treatment because it was determined it did not work in the past.

Determined by flawless scientific research? I am. (Chief Scientist, US Dept of Forestry and a researcher for 50 years).

I have actually been thinking about doing some independent research on tree wound sealants myself. I have available a perfect test plot where a highway district butchered about fifty lindens. Multiple large ripping cuts, stubs, flush cuts, etc. The trees are over a hundred years old. My challenge is I do not have the time.

Oh, no, another amateur scientist. Only thing worse is having the manufacturer do it's own research (think cigarette/cancer research....or tree paint manufacturers)

The theory is if we can seal the wound so that oxygen cannot get to the cells, can we slow or stop decay. Yes, the trees have the ability to compartmentalize decay (CODIT), but do we have other options? Not all trees are good at compartmentalizing. Not all trees have the energy reserve to perform this function. I have actually been thinking how trees would respond to covering a wound or large pruning cut with Elmer’s Glue.

The fault in your thinking is oxygen is already in there and what's more so is infection. The glue will likely also inhibit closure.

People think they can control everything. Guy's wound he admires because of bark tracing and tree paint has got to offend the tree as it did this itself.....DESPITE what he did in the name of "tree care".

There are "dressings" with fungistatic qualities but who is gonna pay the dummy standing next to the tree with unlidded can and paint brush in hand all day and night......to repaint/replenish the dressing the moment it degrades and is no longer functional? He will likely fall asleep on duty at THE opportune moment and miss the impasse.

PS....Compartmentalizing decay is not CODIT.....CODIT is just a model.

 

[treeseer]

Geez i almost lost my appetite reading this.

Determined by flawless scientific research? I am. (Chief Scientist, US Dept of Forestry and a researcher for 50 years).

Cmon Dave, far from flawless, and far from the end of the story. Hero-worship is great, but that is idolatry.

`
Oh, no, another amateur scientist.

That descends from idolatry to the Dark Ages. You disapprove of a highly skilled and educated arborist conducting a field study, and instead codify decades-old study and say that there is no more to say? :taped:

FWIW, what would you do with that lightning - struck historic oak, "determine" that conventional treatments would be futile, and that experiments on sealants are also futile because the scientist hath spoken, therefore you'd "determine" the tree should be removed?

I'm glad to see that the folks in Germany tried something, and just amazed that the tree shows no sign (to my eyes) of decay after 12 years of heartwood un-exposed. {Dave read Schwarze--he too concludes that more work on sealants makes sense when heartwood is exposed, and he's done more and deeper studies on decay than anyone ever.} The foldout version is in the feb 2008 tci; the editor must have thought it was a catchy pic too, to feature it thus.

tk and dm be ready to dance with the whirling dervish--like tangoing with a Tasmanian devil! i'm heading for the punchbowl, then to chat up the wallflowers.

 

[BCMA]

Excuss me...may I cut in on this dance?



I do.

Determined by flawless scientific research? I am. (Chief Scientist, US Dept of Forestry and a researcher for 50 years).

No research on trees is flawless.

Oh, no, another amateur scientist. Only thing worse is having the manufacturer do it's own research (think cigarette/cancer research....or tree paint manufacturers)

I'm not a scientist. An arborist that is willing to learn by trying new techniques.

The fault in your thinking is oxygen is already in there and what's more so is infection. The glue will likely also inhibit closure.

Do you know this for sure? Are you positively correct?

There are "dressings" with fungistatic qualities but who is gonna pay the dummy standing next to the tree with unlidded can and paint brush in hand all day and night......to repaint/replenish the dressing the moment it degrades and is no longer functional? He will likely fall asleep on duty at THE opportune moment and miss the impasse.

You are right that the dummy standing there day and night will someday fall asleep and miss the impasse. Dummy us for not realizing this. Thanks for the insight!

PS....Compartmentalizing decay is not CODIT.....CODIT is just a model.

Could you please tell me what the acronym CODIT stands for?

Treevet, you are absolutely right! Shame on anyone who would dare to think outside the box, and question the status quo. I’m sure Mr. Shigo never did that!

 

[Texas Traveler]

nice i love crane removals tom trees

I see one thing wrong with the crane set-up, not enough crane matts under the rear outriggers.

The home the crane is working over or near should not be put at risk just to save a few minutes of work.

Also the front of the rig should not have a heavy load brought around over the cab. You should only use 3 areas of the crane to lift, both sides & the rear.
Never swing a heavy load over the front of a mobile crane.

 

[BCMA]

tk and dm be ready to dance with the whirling dervish--like tangoing with a Tasmanian devil! i'm heading for the punchbowl, then to chat up the wallflowers.

LOL. :agree2:

 

[treevet]

Geez i almost lost my appetite reading this.

From the grapevine....losing your appetite might be a positive thing

Cmon Dave, far from flawless, and far from the end of the story. Hero-worship is great, but that is idolatry.

Dr. (Pls note mr. bcma) Shigo....Father of Modern Arboriculture......Guy Meilleur.....Father of Modern Our bore (boring) a culture :hmm3grin2orange:

FWIW, what would you do with that lightning - struck historic oak, "determine" that conventional treatments would be futile, and that experiments on sealants are also futile because the scientist hath spoken, therefore you'd "determine" the tree should be removed?

Nobody ever saved a tree with tree paint. I prob. saved a boat load more trees than Father Guy.

tk and dm be ready to dance with the whirling dervish--like tangoing with a Tasmanian devil! i'm heading for the punchbowl, then to chat up the wallflowers.

Flattery will get you everywhere. Now we just got to work on BCMA crazy gluing all those trees together. :kilt:opcorn:

 

[Ed Roland]

BCMA, excellent job. I dig that mill work.

 

[Slvrmple72]

BCMA, great pictures! Thanks for sharing! Gotta go I have a Norway Maple out back that lost a third of its crown from Ike last year in one branch and I need to put a fresh coat of Thompsons Water Seal on it.:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[outofmytree]

Loved your yard set up BCMA. I think that could work well over here with the right acreage and gear. Lot of very nice hardwoods in Western Australia. Now all I need is a spare couple of million to go buy some stuff..... Anyone got change of a billion dollar note?

 

[outofmytree]

Excuss me...may I cut in on this dance?

I don’t think anyone here is espousing that tree paint is going to wash away injury or mistreatment to a tree. I think we would all agree that tree paint is unnecessary in most cases.

At the same time we need to continue to think about our standard procedures and try to find a better way. There is so much we do not know about trees and how they function. I’m not going to rule out a particular treatment because it was determined it did not work in the past. There are too many variables to place oneself in a box.

I have actually been thinking about doing some independent research on tree wound sealants myself. I have available a perfect test plot where a highway district butchered about fifty lindens. Multiple large ripping cuts, stubs, flush cuts, etc. The trees are over a hundred years old. My challenge is I do not have the time.

The theory is if we can seal the wound so that oxygen cannot get to the cells, can we slow or stop decay. Yes, the trees have the ability to compartmentalize decay (CODIT), but do we have other options? Not all trees are good at compartmentalizing. Not all trees have the energy reserve to perform this function. I have actually been thinking how trees would respond to covering a wound or large pruning cut with Elmer’s Glue.

Even though I do not use wound paint or fill cavities with concrete, I do not want to rule out my options and close my mind to new or old ideas.

I would be interested to read the results of such experiments if the product is different to those used previously.

It took Edison more than 2000 failures to isolate the right element for the electric light bulb. He did not consider that he failed 2000 times, but rather that he found 2000 ways that did not work.