Cross over gear

[NickfromWI]

Originally posted by Stumper
Dynamic climbing ropes are designed for crazy rock climbers to climb ABOVE their anchors. When they fall (and they all fall) it has to catch them without turning them into sacks of broken mush in their harnesses.

Another reason worth mentioning. This will testify to the craziness of the rock climber doing lead/traditional climbing (climbing above your TIP as opposed to top-rope where the anchor is always above head). A standard anchor in rock climbing is a what's called a chock/nut/cam/friend/wedge,/hex etc. These words describe different objects that serve the same purpose. Imagine you tool a felling wedge, drilled a hold in it, then girth-hitched a small webbing sling to it. you were climbing around the tree with this wedge hanging off your saddle. You get to a point where you want to do a redirect. You pull out this wedge and find a conveniently located tight crotch that you could JUST barely fit this wedge into. You jam it in, then clip your rope to a carabiner hanging from this wedge. This becomes your redirect.

This (in a manner of speaking) is the type of anchors that I set when rock climbing. Granted the hexes I use are alloy, not plastic. And placement is the key (like in volleyball, pool, and sex). But in our scenario, we were using this as a redirect. Now imagine climbing straight up over that wedge. If you go ten more ffeet, then fall, you fall twenty feet. The dynamic ropes (rock climbing ropes) stretch to absorb shock to you, but also to minimize load at the anchors. Take that fall on a static/caving or maybe arbo rope (don't know about that last one for sure) and you might just pop that wedge right out the crotch. My chances of survival are greater when sustaining falls on the dynamic ropes.

And rock climbers don't get paid to do what we do!

love
nick

 

[NickfromWI]

I meant to add this....

 

[Derek]

Hey there Nick, I wont "quote" all that,

"If you go ten more feet, then fall, you fall twenty feet."(took out the other F for ya) (only thing I can do for all the AWSOME info! THANX)

Now can I work out how much it streached, is it now the elastisicity Factor coming into play? that saved his back..

I like the notion of a "softer" landing on a pully or snatchstrap being used to lower limbs, I have heard HORRIBLE things come out of trees that I have had to lower with bull ropes..Thats a lot of force on the tree. Granted they where big trees, tall any way,

And cutting them (nearly) in half, but i have to wonder somtimes, if it has termites or other structer problems, it sounds like the whole tree was going to come down,,,ME with it!

BTW The "cockey" wanted to keep the Stringy barks for the timber...Rocks every where (big ones) and lots of them. if the whole tree goes down the timber gets busted to peices and will proberly get hung up too...TREES EVERYWHERE...

So to be quick , worked a pattern and took them in one cut.
The idea being that we could keep the butt against the tree, put another line to control where the butt was lowerd to then we had 50 m of bull line to drag the whole head out...It also worked well when they did get hung up, just release it from the tree im in
and get the bobcat or excervatior on to it...Saved us 5 weeks dragging tiny bits by hand in 40* C over the rocks

The boyz thought Iwas AWSOME, and never bought a beer the whole time!!

Its all starting to sink in, (even the tech jargon, GOOD work Treespyder, took a 150 reads but im getting there!) and who could forget Justin?

Wonder how Jase will go on the wall? NO foot help ..LMAO

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Dynamic climbing rope isn't going to work in trees. It stretches too much.

Traditional arbo rope isn't much less stretchy than static line. The stretch is even less when used in a traditional doubled system like most arbos climb.

Stick with tree ropes for climbing. Even Arborplex is better than rock rope.

Tom

 

[JCSJC]

Good enough for me

Thanks for the advice. Stumper singled you out as the person who's thoughts on the matter carried weight.

Might snap some up anyway, never know when it may come in handy, I'll just refrain from doing anything dangerous with it.



For Derek...."Wonder how Jase will go on the wall? NO foot help ..LMAO




Quite well, actually. Just called my wife on the cell phone, she's been driving me up walls for years.

 

[Burnham]

I seldom have a strong disagreement with Tom D., but in this I do. The utility and appropriateness of "rock ropes" for tree work depends on the climbing being done. If one is climbing SRT there is nothing better than a static 11mm non-arbo kernmantle climbing line. I'm sure Tom knows this. Some of you will remember threads of a while back where we talked about climbing above the tie in point. When working in the small wood in conifers I always use a self-deployed belay system constructed of 11mm dynamic kernmantle rock rope, and nothing else offers the same level of protection when you are 20 or 30 feet above your bomb-proof anchor point. My work frequently include long rappels on a rescue eight or a rack that follow climbs that have not included ascent by means of friction hitch climbing, and there, too, a nice, light, 11mm rock rope is superior.

Of course, this is not the common scenario for arbo tree work, and for that I stick to arbo style ropes, too.

I will report, though, that one of my conifer climbing partners rappels on 11mm kernmantle in a dynamic system using a Blue Streak splittail tied with a Blake's hitch, and has never had glazing of the kernmantle, as many have suggested will inevitably occur.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

When climbing above tie in i try to make sure line won't ride up, and every body length or so, choke a sling/ carabiner to run 1 or both lines thru (depending on desired effect). This reduces fall, and gives 'fail to' points in series. they can be used for foot loops, drinks, hand holds, clipping straight to D, hanldes for tossing pieces or riggign etc. on the way down.

The same elacticity that i was speaking of buffering in rigging for things going down, greatly helping; turn around and stand agianst you, when likewise reversed , going up. The energy from the fall elasticity would catch and dissipate force, now dissipates some of your force climbing, so it 'costs' more energy to achieve same heights.

i'm more inclined to go with that the dynamic line works better for rigging down or over than climbing, especially ascending as a device. The lighter, skinnier line, good for smaller loads, on even smaller supports confidentally. Or even bigger loads on the same support, as the line doesn't deliver highest part of force to support. The line 'clips' the high force out of the graph of force; making it a handy device/tool i think. The line device can magically perform the acts of both connecting, while isolating at the same time! To walk such a thin line of best, not too much of either property to relation ship of specific task commands more considerationin choosing this key componenet i think.

:alien:

 

[NickfromWI]

Originally posted by Tree Machine
New England came around with the Fly, a kind, gentle rope, artistic rather than industrial. Able, like your older sister.

And now we have Blaze and Velocity, too.

love
nick

 

[Tree Machine]

Originally posted by Burnham
I seldom have a strong disagreement with Tom D., but in this I do...... a nice, light, 11mm rock rope is superior.

11 mm also opens the door to New School Climbing. Using devices. Now I think Burnham's thought is well done, but the term, 'rock rope' does need to fall out of our arborist repertoire. Here is the reason.

The rope industry is serving us. We (especially me) have been prompting the rope manufacturers for years to produce an 11 mm climbing line for us arbos.

New England came around with the Fly, a kind, gentle rope, artistic rather than industrial. Able, like your older sister.

Then Sampson answers with Velocity a semistatic kernmantle whose new coating makes footlocking with wooden clogs possible. So grippy you have to adjust your climbing style to accomodate it. The exceptional gripping tendencies, paired with Ugly gloves will raise your confidence, much better, surer grip with less grip pressure. This not a Samthane coating , like on other ropes in their line (Stable braid, for instance). this coating is really new, and this coating alone is revolutionary. The rope is playing out nice, but I'll let you know after a year of use.

Personally, I think 11 mm Stable Braid is the finest tree climbing rope in the world as compared to any static, semi static or dynamic rope, any of them, ANYWHERE. I like it better than any 13 mm I have ever climbed on. It is my all time fave. But that is just me.

I have not tried the 11mm Blaze.

And finally, wait, this one deserves it's own page....

 

[Tree Machine]

Groundbreaking rope

This rope is challenging my affections for the 11 mm Stable Braid - and you all probably know Stable braid as bull rope, or loowering line, but either 13 mm, but especially the 11 mm, makes fabulous climbing rope, all the right characteristics, and a tensile rating blowing every other 11 mm out of the water.

This next rope is a horse of a different color. The engineering of this rope was borne with new school tree climbers in mind. Since tree climbing is sort of the veritable testing and battle grounds for excessive rope wear, the manufacturer designed this 11 mm kernmantle with all the characteristics that we need, considered. A rope that will last in the trenches with us, will go the distance with any aerial discipline on planet earth. In fact, in making this rope for us, they succeeded with this same rope stepping up to become the industry standard as search and rescue lifeline.

For 50 billion dollars who can name the rope and it's Mother Company?

 

[Derek]

G'day guys...Damm good thread going here!

Well I loved it! My new job...first was to do some nice tall ugly stuff. 70% to be lowerd,, ("the yellow box", will post shots eleswhere)...

Normaly I would'nt bother going to the top of a tree to make a start, theres usealy somthing to do first, or lower useing the first fork available.. (still tied in of course). Im working with a solo guy(somtimes) and wanted to make a good impression and decided to go and set a realy high life line...

I took the end of a 4mm line with me (the on on the windable reel and stand,see 'photos of personal gear") and the beal rock rope

Plan being to use the(MY) 4mm to belay up the (HIS)3/4 bulline
I dont have a long one at the moment, hence working with another pro..(His insurance too)

Anyway..What a treat. got up there, found the perfect spot and put the double pully on, got the 4mm over another branch and tied it on to me, put on the rescue 8 on and came down...

Slowly the first time till I got the pull line down...we got it in place,
did some work and the backhoe blew a hose off...

Matt (the partner on the job) and I where talking, on the ground about the rope he dident like the idea. I got him to belay me back up a few times so i could (show off to the neighbor hood) come down again..quicker and quicker each time..Thats fun, the bounce in it is unreal, stop the rope compleatly 6 reet of the ground and gently touch down, ya better release a bit soon as you do or you might get sent up again!!

I used it as my climbing line for the whole tree.. Big pines after that and no way, xtc for them!!

I Guess for me it will depened on the tree. as to which rope i use
I still have an unsued "galixay Mummut" rope I might have a play with now I know a lot more about them...


"and every body length or so, choke a sling/ carabiner to run 1 or both lines thru"
Tree spyder "love your work"

Never done it, Am I relying to much on my flipline or pole strap?
A little time consuming, but good to know its there!

Huh thought I was a safty nut....Cool dude!



I dident leave yet (proof reading took ages, damm tyops today)
Ps
one more thing, i used it as a pull line for Matt when he was going to take the head off one of the pines , (needed the 50m lenght)..I used a petzl (gold,left) accender to pull it with, (bit thin that rope compared with what im used to)..

Wow I could feel most of his backcut through it, new exactly when to pull it a little more...Felt AWSOME, realy good control...

Now then as im not to emmbarrassed to ask (anymore) {thanks Jase} can you use the assenders like that...It was a bit of a back leaner, and I had a thought( just 3 seconds) to put the crab through it and hook it on to the machine..(mabey it was 2 secs)

Hey no knots, on and off in a second, so quicly addjusted..
and the feel you get through it is most unlike hands only..

Any comments?

 

[Stumper]

I see no problem with using an ascender to hold the rope when pulling by hand but it isn't suitable for tying onto a big multiplier or to mobile equipment----when loaded to 400-500 Kg the ascenders tend to shear the mantle on kernmantle ropes.

Derek, Explain about your 4mm line for belay.-That is awfully small cordage.

 

[Stumper]

Jim. New England Ropes KM III. I prefer a cash payment.

 

[Derek]

Hey there Justin sorry i wasent clearer...His (Matt's) bull line weights a ton..I dident want to take it all the way up with me..

By taking the light (but strong) line up and remember bought it back down over another branch...It was to get the bulline up there, was all i used it for... The reel is very good for winding it up.

Yer I thought the accenders would be ok, it can hold my weight if i had it in a tree...I have been in a tree that got pulled over once,
Granted not a big one(I'd have more scars than i do have!)

I hadent started much of my backcut, he was supposed to just hold the weight a littel (only a stinkin fence to) so it dident crash straight down, or go the other way...

He was looking behind him self (yes he was in a 4wd) and left..

Idiot, he pulled the whole tree over (Never hit the fence though)

ya live and learn...no machinery pulls with someone in it...Pretty standard i know but back then I was a little rough around the edges!...Derek..

 

[Stumper]

Derek-You were clear enough-I'm just sleepy. You did say to "Belay up" the bull-line. My brain jumped onto the belay and I thought you were rapping down with 4mm in your fig 8.

 

[Derek]

NO WORRIES MATE , glad you point out some things, hey I might be doing somthing I shouldent, and would love to be checked on it...Keep it up...

It could of been at my end..The rain on this tin roof has been deafining today...If it would ease up a bit id go and check the gauge...I saw some news just now the only place in Oz not getting torencial rain seems to be a little spot in the desert...

And Justin when I get the photos back you'll see why i would of liked an inch line...4mm and a fig 8..LMAO..

But hey while your there what term would one use for that ..
Mabey define Belay a bit better for me..I proberly use the term to much?..Thanx for checking on me...Derek...

Oh GOOD MORNING! Sleepy head!!

 

[Stumper]

Belay= to secure, to stop. I think haul line would be appropriate for your use of the 4mm.Sometimes the terminology does get confusing--even without the language barrier.

 

[Derek]

"There ya go" then!

Haul is somthing we do to loads on trucks, the word never came into my mind, ill try it, see if I can confuse someone eles!


Im the most isolated climber on as, (those of you I know anyway)
Mabey Timber is a bit out there, but his whole country looks like ( in scale) the drive to the shops for us..

As far as terminoligy goes , and hanging out with other climbers goes, it doesent happen..AS is where i spose I get a few terms from ( I lurked here for about a year before i joined,{ "yer and he hasent shut his mouth since then" }..

I know lots of Sheep and MINING terms since we moved here even learned a few things about wild pigs (they have lots of names) but even then they would have to be different from those used by the Yanks ...Language barrier hey?

Are you still a little sleepy or has "belay" got nothing to do with running a rope through a pully, lets say in a tree for example, and useing one end of it to raise somthing up? Cheers, Derek!

 

[Stumper]

Well.... If you are holding the haul line to keep what you were raising from moving-you are belaying the load. Particularly if you throw a few wraps a round a stub as a belaying point.

 

[Derek]

cool, that helps a bit, we stihl proberly use it to much to decribe raiseing somthing up or down, but not branches either though..

My esky, the big saws, even a fefulled saw, hooked through the crab on my right hip, and back to the ground, they pull (belay) it up by pulling down on a rope. Let the groundie do somthing..

cheers Derek..