crown reduction

[ROLLACOSTA]

Originally posted by DDM
Might have gotten a little carried away with these 2..... Whatcha Thinks?

nice work just what i like to see keep it up your a real pro

 

[blue]

before

 

[blue]

after

 

[Ross Turner]

Good job there Blue.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by PRUNER 1
the point of reduction was that the homeowners were wanting more light

How did the reduction achieve that goal? The crown still looks pretty demse, and may be denser yet after regrowth from your cuts. Anyway, it's a good-looking tree, and myself I value shade on a house more than light anyway.

 

[blue]

whoa,i didn't start this thread it seemed the thread was about if pruner1 thought his reduction looked ok.it did to me.
i posted the before and afters as i wanted to show people our work..
our reduction was done because the tree is in a public place and has severe cavity's at the lowest major fork and the local authority wanted to give the tree a longer life span whilst leaving the tree in a safer condition by reducing the sail effect on these huge limbs thus reducing the chance of a failiure of a major stem

 

[Nickrosis]

You won't successfully reduce the sail effect without getting rid of all the leaves since the sail effect is so small. But you can lighten the load by removing larger limbs. But hopefully they're dead limbs since you'd be creating needlessly large wounds if they were green.

IMHO.....Basically, for trees with cavities, the best options are removal, cabling/bracing/Cobra/etc, deadwooding, or leaving it alone. Maybe, maybe, maybe crown reduction.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Nickrosis
You won't successfully reduce the sail effect without getting rid of all the leaves since the sail effect is so small.
Nick, the windsail in the 'before" picture was a lot more than in the "after". much more leverage, as viewed from here.
IMHO.....Basically, for trees with cavities, the best options are removal, cabling/bracing/Cobra/etc, deadwooding, or leaving it alone. Maybe, maybe, maybe crown reduction.

I would list them as:
1. Cleaning and light reduction.
2. Cabling
3. Heavy reduction.
4. Removal.

"Although tree removal is a last resort, there are circumstances when it is necessary. An arborist can help decide whether or not a tree should be removed. Removal is recommended when a tree:• is dead, dying, or considered irreparably hazardous."

Nick the ISA says (and I agree) that removal is a last resort.
all cavities do not make irreparable hazards.
Why would an ISA Certified Arborist say it is his first option?

 

[Nickrosis]

It wasn't an ordered list by any means. Heavy reduction would be an option, I guess.....if it was to be removed down the road anyways.

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
I disagree. The only way to know is to measure it somehow. I have seen studies where thinning increased drag, much like driving a car with the windows down.

I think it has a lot to do with the placement of the cuts. A lions-tailing can exponentially increase the loading on a limb/tree.

 

[blue]

the inter net is wonderful thing but it is hard to put things into words sometimes even with pictures it can still be hard to get your point accross.my point was that we reduced a london plane and it still looks like a london plane.we were payed to do the job so we did it.
this site is good apart from the constant sniping from some people,it,s getting a tad tiresome.
people are getting scared of posting on here because of it.personally i don't give a feck what you think of me but IMO i did a good job.
i'm sure i'll get slated for this but i don't really care anymore.i'll do what i'm asked within reason.

 

[Nickrosis]

I don't mean to attack you, and I know it's hard to show with pictures. I switched back and forth on your before and after pictures, but it was hard to tell because the top of the tree in the after picture was a little washed out.

I'm maintaining that the authority who told you to reduce the sail effect was asking you to perform a nearly impossible task. The sail effect is SO tiny that it's nearly insignificant. The weight is all in the wood, and you don't want to go removing a lot of wood (unless it's dead) on a mature tree.

And with a small car, it's difficult to haul that away, too. But seriously, you're right. What you did does maintain the original nature of the tree. It's hard to pass judgement at a million miles away, and I didn't mean to do that to you. If netree was posting, though, I would have no problem over-analyzing.

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

mike mass and others what would you have suggested be done to a large tree with major decay/cavitys at the begining of the major forks???..i would have had no probs at all with reducing the crown lessening the weight/leverege to the weak area in fact i couldn't think of a better solution ..i think some of us on here need to look up what the word 'arboriculture' actualy means !, imo urban trees need to fit into our enviroment not the other way around

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by ROLLACOSTA
imo urban trees need to fit into our enviroment not the other way around

Either way.....

My point essentially is that the weight is in the wood, but so is the wounding when the wood is removed. So, cut the deadwood and you've done about all you can do for a mature tree.

Why? If you remove the remaining weight (the green wood), you're creating big wounds. Which lead to decay...which worsen the situation you're trying to resolve.

The exception Guy pointed out is when the tree won't out live the decay that will form from the big cuts.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
The only way to know is to measure it somehow. I have seen studies where thinning increased drag, much like driving a car with the windows down.

We're talking about reduction, not thinning, right? Brudi et al measured thousands of trees and re stability gain via crown reduction concluded that: "Tall, large trees have an exponentially higher wind loads than smaller trees." from Statics-Integrated Assessments

It reaffirms common sense. Nick, what you said about liontailing is right, but I have no idea why you're saying the sail effect is tiny; what is your opinion based on? Yes the weight is in the wood, but the strain on the defect comes largely from the length of the lever arm. i.e. the height of the tree.

I saw some research from the Dakota area where some convicts weighed leaves and the researcher concluded that reducing windsail did little to increase stability. Half-brained poppycock imo, ignoring physics while leaning on faulty math concepts.

blue, thanks for posting the pictures, and sticking your neck out. The ax is swinging not at you but at the concept of reduction pruning. Some people still confuse it with thinning; they don't get it yet.

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

unfortunatly cable bracing /cobra system are very very rarely an option overhere as according to the legal community its an admittion that there is a hazadous defect in the tree so the tree/hazard should be removed world gone crazy imo .again imo if blue got another 5-10 years out of the tree ie forks never failed then i think mission acomplished..lets face it trees grown in an urban enviroment are in for a short life anyway..i say plant ,maintain to within reason/££,fell, plant another ..thats urban tree maintenance ie street trees, trees surrounded by structures houses apartments etc

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
I saw some research from the Dakota area where some convicts weighed leaves and the researcher concluded that reducing windsail did little to increase stability. Half-brained poppycock imo, ignoring physics while leaning on faulty math concepts.

That was Dr. John Ball. That was what I was basing my opinions on. Poppycock? Whatever...

 

[Nickrosis]

I'm not talking about thinning versus reduction, though. I'm focusing on what he was talking about ....reducing a ficticious wind sail effect. When the wind blows, leaves collapse and assume a miniscule profile. Yes, branches with leaves have a greater wind resistance coefficient, but it's not as large as I think you're making it out to be.

I completely agree with your technique of stretching out a tree's life....I'm questioning the heavy pruning of an otherwise healthy tree with a cavity.

 

[BigJohn]

What happened to the fence and all the shrubs in that picture? Did yall wipe them out?


I don't see much reduction but I'm not one to judge reduction. I just can't bring myself to make heading cuts it just feels wrong.

 

[MasterBlaster]

The 'after' shot looks just fine to me!