smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
For some great photos try http://www.nwsafallers.org/
then check out the "Can You Cut it" link near the bottom center.
then check out the "Can You Cut it" link near the bottom center.
cutting burning trees
- Thread starter smokechase II
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nothing handles that. If you can't limit the time in the heat trashing the bar is an accepted part of this type of cutting.
BlueRidgeMark
Addicted to ArboristSite
Serious cojonés required!
luckycutter
Addicted to ArboristSite
BlueRidgeMark said:Serious cojonés required!
Questionable sanity as well. Glad they are on the job though as it takes someone cut from a special cloth to do that kind of work.
yow
And I thought logging was dangerous. Kinda like juggling flaming swords, only they won't crush you.
Can you say world's most dangerous job?
Hat's off to ya.
And I thought logging was dangerous. Kinda like juggling flaming swords, only they won't crush you.
Can you say world's most dangerous job?
Hat's off to ya.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
To be honest cutting like that is usually rare.
If you can get water to it, put it most of the way out from a distance, then deal with it if only the base is burning.
Most common is to let it burn down.
In some instances the fire at the base can be stoked with more fuel and cutting some vertical slits for increased airflow will speed it up.
Sometimes you can whack it with another larger tree/snag. But on a fire that is generally undesirable with the fuel increase.
If the tree has burned substantially and you're pressed by fire weather to solve the problem if possible. You can also bring in a 15'+ stem horizontally and twist it with one end in the hollowed tree to break it off. I've only done this once but it is nice to be 12' away from the stump, no saw running and being able to look up easily.
Realistically, the risk of dealing with a burning tree is so high that most have to be left.
We had a well thought of Hotshot from California killed about 15 months ago and he hadn't even started cutting. He was just clearing an escape when the freshly burned top came out.
I'm not familiar with this organization or those in the photos. But am glad they're organizing.
If you can get water to it, put it most of the way out from a distance, then deal with it if only the base is burning.
Most common is to let it burn down.
In some instances the fire at the base can be stoked with more fuel and cutting some vertical slits for increased airflow will speed it up.
Sometimes you can whack it with another larger tree/snag. But on a fire that is generally undesirable with the fuel increase.
If the tree has burned substantially and you're pressed by fire weather to solve the problem if possible. You can also bring in a 15'+ stem horizontally and twist it with one end in the hollowed tree to break it off. I've only done this once but it is nice to be 12' away from the stump, no saw running and being able to look up easily.
Realistically, the risk of dealing with a burning tree is so high that most have to be left.
We had a well thought of Hotshot from California killed about 15 months ago and he hadn't even started cutting. He was just clearing an escape when the freshly burned top came out.
I'm not familiar with this organization or those in the photos. But am glad they're organizing.
Old Monkey
Addicted to ArboristSite
I hate to be a basher, but cutting on a burning base like that is stupid and seldom if ever done by competent fire fighters. It is not very hard to cool something like that down, even without water. Cool dirt thrown at the tree and mixed with the ash will cool that tree down. It can be laborious and time consuming but the alternative is screwing up your saw, chain and bar. If you cut through burning wood your saw will intensify the heat by blowing oxygen into the fire. You will lose the temper of your chain in less than a minute of cutting. It is always best to cool it down in the are you are going to cut, and chip away as much of the charred wood as you can with shovels and pulaskis. When you have to carry all of the tools, replacement parts and chain for your saw in your back pack(line gear) you don't risk your chains like that.
This part will get me in trouble with some folks, but I have to say that in my ten seasons as wildland firefighter, I was never too impressed with the contract fallers who were hired to fall trees on fires. I am sure they were all excellent at falling trees for harvest. However, cutting burning snags and hazard trees on the fireline is a different skill set. Most of my training came from loggers and I have seen D. Douglas Dent's vidoes to where I know them by heart. Hands on experience in fire situations can't be beat.
Sorry to hear about the Hot Shot who cashed it in. It is too true that some trees should be left alone. I left my share for blasting crews to do their thing on. That would have been a fun job, blowing trees over with det. cord. Never got to see that unfortunately.
This part will get me in trouble with some folks, but I have to say that in my ten seasons as wildland firefighter, I was never too impressed with the contract fallers who were hired to fall trees on fires. I am sure they were all excellent at falling trees for harvest. However, cutting burning snags and hazard trees on the fireline is a different skill set. Most of my training came from loggers and I have seen D. Douglas Dent's vidoes to where I know them by heart. Hands on experience in fire situations can't be beat.
Sorry to hear about the Hot Shot who cashed it in. It is too true that some trees should be left alone. I left my share for blasting crews to do their thing on. That would have been a fun job, blowing trees over with det. cord. Never got to see that unfortunately.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Old Monkey:
You're not a basher. You are correct.
In 36 years only twice have I damaged bars from cutting into burning wood.
Both times it was the correct thing to do. On the tree, only the bottom 8' or so was burning. If we'd have waited the whole thing (about an 80 footer I recall) would have been involved shortly. No way were two guys without water (even fedco's) going to touch it. Similar story on the 54-56" hollowed out log.
Provided you can cut safely, it's a cost thing. The cost of a new bar/chain versus a larger fire.
You're not a basher. You are correct.
In 36 years only twice have I damaged bars from cutting into burning wood.
Both times it was the correct thing to do. On the tree, only the bottom 8' or so was burning. If we'd have waited the whole thing (about an 80 footer I recall) would have been involved shortly. No way were two guys without water (even fedco's) going to touch it. Similar story on the 54-56" hollowed out log.
Provided you can cut safely, it's a cost thing. The cost of a new bar/chain versus a larger fire.
BlueRidgeMark
Addicted to ArboristSite
Old Monkey said:
smokechase II said:
Nearest I can tell, a wildfire is pretty close to an emergency situation, in most cases, anyway.
In an emergency, the cost of a saw, bar, and chain is not even trivial.
Old Monkey
Addicted to ArboristSite
When I fought fire I lived out of my pack. All the food, water, saw tools and gear was on my back even while I was cutting. At most I would carry two extra chains. Never an extra bar. I would stipulate that any tree you can stand close enough to cut can be cooled down with good old fashioned dirt. A tree that is burning too hot to cool down would be too hot to stand next to and cut. The problem with sacrificing a bar for an emergency is that many acres and hours of emergency await you after that one tree. You cannot put your saw out of action when you still need it to work many more hours and perhaps days before you get to your rig. The cost of a role of toilet paper in town is trivial. Out in the woods it is priceless. Same for saw parts. I never willingly did anything to wreck my saw.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Old Monkey:
I'll disagree on that stand close enough to cut and cool down combo.
The primary decision in all of this is safety. There are plenty of trees that you can cut down from one spot but not begin to put out with dirt from just that one spot. If the tree is burning up mid or near the top...... anyway. More time underneath a partially severed stem is arguably a death wish thing.
Also, I've taken slabs from the lightning strike, cut them into 4' long lumber and placed them onto the ground for a place to stand so I didn't heat damage my boots. To come close to putting out the area around the base and the base of a tree too can still be untimely enough to allow the fire to move up the stem.
Water is a great thing. Makes this discussion moot if you've got it.
Your fires were apparently all short time frames. Well done.
I'll disagree on that stand close enough to cut and cool down combo.
The primary decision in all of this is safety. There are plenty of trees that you can cut down from one spot but not begin to put out with dirt from just that one spot. If the tree is burning up mid or near the top...... anyway. More time underneath a partially severed stem is arguably a death wish thing.
Also, I've taken slabs from the lightning strike, cut them into 4' long lumber and placed them onto the ground for a place to stand so I didn't heat damage my boots. To come close to putting out the area around the base and the base of a tree too can still be untimely enough to allow the fire to move up the stem.
Water is a great thing. Makes this discussion moot if you've got it.
Your fires were apparently all short time frames. Well done.
Old Monkey
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm not saying extinguish the tree entirely before you cut. Just cool down the part you are cutting on. Most of my fire experience was with Shot crews on large complex fires. My last two seasons were spent rappelling on initial attack type fires. Water was seldom an option in the initial phases of hot line construction. It doesn't take very long time wise to scrape the coals away from the base of a tree you want to cut on. The picture in your link that got me going was the one of the flames on the guys face cut. That pict tells me someone's not doing things right. I know I could cool that tree down to the point were it wasn't supporting open flames. I still say his saw will fuel the fire with extra oxygen and it will kill the temper of his chain and bar and he will be a useless sawyer.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Old Monkey:
If you were trying to cool down the flames on the inside of that really hot tree and I was the Division Sup. You're crew would be released. Scrapping coals off on the outside is one thing, but placing oneself in that bad a spot...
That isn't to say that the sawyer wouldn't be looking for a new fire either. In neither photo is he looking up.
One of the problems with cutting on/near a hot tree/log is how distracting it is. It does appear that his bar is only doing what is necessary and not being excessively heat exposed.
I did mention in an earlier post on this thread to "put it most of the way out from a distance." We're on the same page there.
Most of my career has been without water too, (Only three seasons on an engine), probably an equal time on large and small fires.
On larger fires these burning trees are generally not a big deal as small fires. If the burning tree is interior and you choose to ribbon and let it go on its own. No big deal. Small fire or next to the line. Could be undesirable pressure to deal with it. Question is, is there a safe way? I'm saying there is occasionally and that part of that safety analysis includes a lower value for the bar/chain than human life.
Overall, I'm actually more worried about stuff up high on burning/recently burned trees/snags than what is going on at the base.
Do you have any accounts of a sawyer being hurt while dropping a burning tree by a factor that was close to the base? All of the stuff I can think of is related to limbs/tops/other trees. So before you jump all over me for the highlighted sentence, come up with at least a few incidences.
If you were trying to cool down the flames on the inside of that really hot tree and I was the Division Sup. You're crew would be released. Scrapping coals off on the outside is one thing, but placing oneself in that bad a spot...
That isn't to say that the sawyer wouldn't be looking for a new fire either. In neither photo is he looking up.
One of the problems with cutting on/near a hot tree/log is how distracting it is. It does appear that his bar is only doing what is necessary and not being excessively heat exposed.
I did mention in an earlier post on this thread to "put it most of the way out from a distance." We're on the same page there.
Most of my career has been without water too, (Only three seasons on an engine), probably an equal time on large and small fires.
On larger fires these burning trees are generally not a big deal as small fires. If the burning tree is interior and you choose to ribbon and let it go on its own. No big deal. Small fire or next to the line. Could be undesirable pressure to deal with it. Question is, is there a safe way? I'm saying there is occasionally and that part of that safety analysis includes a lower value for the bar/chain than human life.
Overall, I'm actually more worried about stuff up high on burning/recently burned trees/snags than what is going on at the base.
Do you have any accounts of a sawyer being hurt while dropping a burning tree by a factor that was close to the base? All of the stuff I can think of is related to limbs/tops/other trees. So before you jump all over me for the highlighted sentence, come up with at least a few incidences.
Old Monkey
Addicted to ArboristSite
No jumping here. I agree with your highlighted sentence. What ever is gonna get ya is going to come from above. When I first started I tried to take down a lightning struck tree without spending a little prep time at the base. It was ugly, I was spent, the saw was trashed and it took me a couple of hours to get it to the ground. I was relatively safe on that tree but the saw and I took more heat than was necessary to get the job done. I have saved big fur trees from being felled just with some dirt and a shovel. I'm not saying that's safe to do in every circumstance. My ego has never been so large that I couldn't do as you say and flag a tree and leave it. Stoking the base is another fine alternative that you mentioned above.
Regarding that link, tell me you wouldn't try to knock down those flames in the first pict before you cut that back cut.
Regarding that link, tell me you wouldn't try to knock down those flames in the first pict before you cut that back cut.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
If you are referring to the "Can You cut it" link.
I've never cut down anything that hot.
Have stoked those and used air slits cut by saw while on sides not under the lean. But I think that has only been 4 times and one of those that seemed like it was going to be down quick took many hours and almost got us into a burn period. It was our perception that we didn't want to go back near it and we were sweating it out. Got lucky on its dropping finally and we were able to pounce on it without fear from above.
Because that one is so well enclosed, can't say for sure but instinctively from this view I'd only want to cool it with water. Of course a huge advantage to water is not just its speed, but distance available when applying from a hose.
I have cut a couple dozen in the class of the cat faced types also shown. You can do those with minimal heat exposure. Cut it like you're finishing a buck where the only the tip of the bar is in the heat for short short moments.
Using fireline explosives on anything burning near the base of course is a not good idea.
I've never cut down anything that hot.
Have stoked those and used air slits cut by saw while on sides not under the lean. But I think that has only been 4 times and one of those that seemed like it was going to be down quick took many hours and almost got us into a burn period. It was our perception that we didn't want to go back near it and we were sweating it out. Got lucky on its dropping finally and we were able to pounce on it without fear from above.
Because that one is so well enclosed, can't say for sure but instinctively from this view I'd only want to cool it with water. Of course a huge advantage to water is not just its speed, but distance available when applying from a hose.
I have cut a couple dozen in the class of the cat faced types also shown. You can do those with minimal heat exposure. Cut it like you're finishing a buck where the only the tip of the bar is in the heat for short short moments.
Using fireline explosives on anything burning near the base of course is a not good idea.
jp hallman
ArboristSite Guru
smokechase II said:
Great pics and an interesting link. I know a few fine fellers who've joined. However, I'm still wary as it reminds me of a union. I'll see what the "gumment" requires and go from there. I've always received fine "report cards"(personal performance evaluations) on fires, as a "C" certified faller, casual hire(FALC). I've seen a few things done by agency cutters that made me leary. "Sport falling"? Who knows? I do agree a standard needs to be in place.
jp hallman
ArboristSite Guru
Regarding that link, tell me you wouldn't try to knock down those flames in the first pict before you cut that back cut.[/QUOTE]
Probably didn't torch until the face cut was made...right? The person taking the pics stopped him and said. "Dude! wait! let me get a pic!" From there it was nothing to make the back cut and fell the tree. Besides, fallers work in teams these days.Thanks to the NWFA and a terrible accident, her husbands. Bars and chains are expendable on fires. All C fallers are required to report with two saws. If the tree must come down when burning like that there's a durn good reason for not waiting. We can't see that in these pictures.
Probably didn't torch until the face cut was made...right? The person taking the pics stopped him and said. "Dude! wait! let me get a pic!" From there it was nothing to make the back cut and fell the tree. Besides, fallers work in teams these days.Thanks to the NWFA and a terrible accident, her husbands. Bars and chains are expendable on fires. All C fallers are required to report with two saws. If the tree must come down when burning like that there's a durn good reason for not waiting. We can't see that in these pictures.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
JP:
Part of the problem is the historical independence of loggers and the failure of that industry to put together "standards".
So the FS is stuck with putting together something, while not being the cutting experts. Although we are a significant part of the fire knowledge end.
Now an OSU student decides to put together this 'cause we didn't have anything together at our ends. Gotta give credit to her.
Part of the problem is the historical independence of loggers and the failure of that industry to put together "standards".
So the FS is stuck with putting together something, while not being the cutting experts. Although we are a significant part of the fire knowledge end.
Now an OSU student decides to put together this 'cause we didn't have anything together at our ends. Gotta give credit to her.
