cutting burning trees

[Tree Sling'r]

I have cut on one fire in my life and I will never do it again - and bunch of arrogant retards who know very little about anything but being a know it all. Up until recently it did not take much to become a faller on a fire - the reason I know this is because of all the cull's around here who can't find a job during the working months are the ones who get hired onto fires. I don't know the politics, personally I think the CDF, USFS and all the other government agencies the control our forest's are a joke. Though, they put out fires they are for the most part a bunch of over paid, lazy, over educated ignorant leeches. If they would manage the forest's in the first place there would not be the millions of board feet of fuel on the ground. And any idiot who cuts a burning tree because some ignorant pissfir told him to needs his face beat in.
You can't compare a cutter who does it for a living to a class so-and-so faller who "works" for the government, state or a hired agency. I have worked side by side many so-called Class Whatever fallers and every single one of them has lasted no-longer than a week- they get fired or comp out. They don't know how to produce, not saying they can't - they just don't. Anyway I probably, made a bunch of you mad, and it is not aimed directly at any title or individual, just my take on a group as a whole. I do respect what many of you do to a certain extent, but when it comes to knowledge and work ethic there is no comparison to a "fire cutter" and one who does it daily.

 

[jp hallman]

I have cut on one fire in my life and I will never do it again - and bunch of arrogant retards who know very little about anything but being a know it all. Up until recently it did not take much to become a faller on a fire - the reason I know this is because of all the cull's around here who can't find a job during the working months are the ones who get hired onto fires. I don't know the politics, personally I think the CDF, USFS and all the other government agencies the control our forest's are a joke. Though, they put out fires they are for the most part a bunch of over paid, lazy, over educated ignorant leeches. If they would manage the forest's in the first place there would not be the millions of board feet of fuel on the ground. And any idiot who cuts a burning tree because some ignorant pissfir told him to needs his face beat in.
You can't compare a cutter who does it for a living to a class so-and-so faller who "works" for the government, state or a hired agency. I have worked side by side many so-called Class Whatever fallers and every single one of them has lasted no-longer than a week- they get fired or comp out. They don't know how to produce, not saying they can't - they just don't. Anyway I probably, made a bunch of you mad, and it is not aimed directly at any title or individual, just my take on a group as a whole. I do respect what many of you do to a certain extent, but when it comes to knowledge and work ethic there is no comparison to a "fire cutter" and one who does it daily.

Most of what you say is true, or smacks of the truth. ALL of the "firecutters" I know are year round fallers, when they can get the work. Just not as many falling jobs out there anymore. The "C" certified, (unrestricted) fallers I've met that weren't agency people were all damn good, skilled fallers. I've never been asked to fall a burning tree that didn't need to come down because of one safety issue or another. Example, if it fell across a road that was the only escape route for some Hot's or something of that nature. Every falling boss I've ever had left the final decision to me. If I thought it was just to risky, we'd flag the thing and alert crews to the danger. Many times you'd just have to wait a while until the top burned out, by "out" I mean fell out. Then fall what was left so it wouldn't be spitting sparks for the next few days and causing spot fires. You catch my drift I hope. Anyway, I'm getting kinda' windy here. It's HOT in the house too. I've been, well, felling timber today. I work at it everyday I can. I get home and my honey has the woodstove going great guns, must be 80 in here! My face is all red, and my ears are burning, so I'm getting off the computer and heading for the shop until things cool down in here. From outside our house looks like a steamship heading across the Atlantic at flank speed! Smoke pouring from the stacks!

 

[jp hallman]

JP:
Part of the problem is the historical independence of loggers and the failure of that industry to put together "standards".

So the FS is stuck with putting together something, while not being the cutting experts. Although we are a significant part of the fire knowledge end.

Now an OSU student decides to put together this 'cause we didn't have anything together at our ends. Gotta give credit to her.

OK, I'll go in just a minute. You said it right. From what I understand by people that belong to Northwest Timber Fallers is that Shari Downhill was moved to start this as a COOP first because of the 50 year old professional timber faller(from Oregon) that was killed in Colorado by an Aspen snag. This poor feller was working a fire. He was falling one hazard tree, without a falling boss or a swamper(the way the CDF likes to do business). A 14" dbh Aspen snag fell on him. He never saw it coming. NO lookouts, Out there by himself. What a tragic waste. SO, the Forest Service doing what it does best poured thousands of man hours on the problem, probably trying to cover it's own a**, like it does so well. At least now it's required you have two fallers teamed up AND a falling boss. The falling boss, if he/she's any count, leaves the decision weather to fall, or not to fall, pretty much up to the professional fallers he's the boss of. Sure, there's a few culls out there but that's true in any business. I personally like the idea behind the NWTFA. I'm still a little concerned about the "union" sort of feel to it though. 'm not alone in this thought. Fire season 2005 ODF wouldn't hire any NWTFA fallers because they hadn't "negotiated" a contract with the state. ODF considers them a union.
OK, it's hot in here and there's cold brew in the shop fridge AND a new plasma tourch! Later dudes!

 

[Tree Sling'r]

Most of what you say is true, or smacks of the truth. ALL of the "firecutters" I know are year round fallers, when they can get the work. Just not as many falling jobs out there anymore. The "C" certified, (unrestricted) fallers I've met that weren't agency people were all damn good, skilled fallers. I've never been asked to fall a burning tree that didn't need to come down because of one safety issue or another. Example, if it fell across a road that was the only escape route for some Hot's or something of that nature. Every falling boss I've ever had left the final decision to me. If I thought it was just to risky, we'd flag the thing and alert crews to the danger. Many times you'd just have to wait a while until the top burned out, by "out" I mean fell out. Then fall what was left so it wouldn't be spitting sparks for the next few days and causing spot fires. You catch my drift I hope. Anyway, I'm getting kinda' windy here. It's HOT in the house too. I've been, well, felling timber today. I work at it everyday I can. I get home and my honey has the woodstove going great guns, must be 80 in here! My face is all red, and my ears are burning, so I'm getting off the computer and heading for the shop until things cool down in here. From outside our house looks like a steamship heading across the Atlantic at flank speed! Smoke pouring from the stacks!

Gotcha, I know I was harsh, but this topic stirs my blood. Like I said, it is directed towards a system, a group of know-it-all's - not an individual.

 

[Old Monkey]

I was a "C Faller" for the Forest Service, I viewed that certification as a learners permit not as proof of my expertise. I am not as good as a production faller. I could cut fireline for days and make most production fallers fall to the wayside. I think there are two separate skill sets involved that don't translate into being good at the other. I don't blame you for your feeling about all the "know it alls" its hard working for the government.

 

[jp hallman]

Gotcha, I know I was harsh, but this topic stirs my blood. Like I said, it is directed towards a system, a group of know-it-all's - not an individual.

I feel exactly the way you do about fire management. Every season I tell myself I've had enough of fires. Then we're shut out of the woods at IFPL 3 or 4 and the bills keep coming in. At that point fire's the only game in town. Well, I do like the rush of falling a few hazard trees, just not the "gumment" crap that goes with it. The "fire community" as a whole is great.

 

[Onelick]

I'm a FALB, and here's something that I always think about when I'm asked to cut a burning snag: I'm standing there with somewhere between a pint and a quart of gasoline about waist level with a vent on it.... How hot do you think it gets there around that gas tank where that vent is?? Every snag/tree is different and a risk assesment must be made on every snag/tree. I may not cut everything I see, but at least my kids have a dad that they can wrap their arms around when I come home...

 

[Tree Sling'r]

I'm a FALB, and here's something that I always think about when I'm asked to cut a burning snag: I'm standing there with somewhere between a pint and a quart of gasoline about waist level with a vent on it.... How hot do you think it gets there around that gas tank where that vent is?? Every snag/tree is different and a risk assesment must be made on every snag/tree. I may not cut everything I see, but at least my kids have a dad that they can wrap their arms around when I come home...

Amen to that, I get grief every once in awhile from my wife - the kids don't understand the job yet, but they will. Just like anything else, if you practice saftey, look around you and pay attention you should manage just fine - but then there is always the unavoidable - hey it can happen in any profession.

 

[smokechase II]

Onelick:
I'm not familiar with any accounts of a chain saw catching on fire. Other than those that have been burned over in events like the Cramer Fire/South Canyon and so forth.
There is a lot of cutting (particularly bucking) where there is some light to moderate heat exposure going on with burning logs. That happens regularly on fires. Although I need to point out that there is a self administered safety procedure here. You get too hot and you move away.

A Hotshot this last spring in Oregon picked his saw up with out the gas cap fastened after refilling. Dumped saw gas on his leg(s). This was on a thinning type project and not a fire. We all make mistakes. His biggest one was to continue running the saw. Spark from a loose spark plug wire ignited things and he got to visit a burn center in Portland. Rumor was that he's doing fine, all things considered. {One of the biggest hassles they had was getting the chaps off quickly.}
Concern over a chain saws gas tank needs to be balance with reality. Compare, if you would, the knowledge a structural fire fighter would have about a gas tank blowin' and that of a Hollywood movie go'er. To get enough heat through the plastic wall of most modern saws gas tanks ......
I didn't totally dismiss this potential risk. But would suggest that a leaking gas cap, (old gasket perhaps), would be the most likely concern here.

Anybody know of any saws catching on fire?

 

[tek9tim]

Nope, no stories of saws catching on fire. Did hear about that guy on Prineville, though. Word on the street was that he was a squad boss rather than one of the usual sawyers though. I'd agree with smokechase about the tank catching on fire. I've bucked some hot stuff before, and I felt like my face was going to melt off, and that's what made me pull back. I think that as long as you are holding onto your saw, your saw won't be exposed to enough heat to ignite it, because you will pull back out of discomfort.

Heard about the guy in California last year too. I have some friends that were on that crew and knew him. They were performing a prescribed burn, had just started their test fire, and an ember ignited a snag near the top. This guy and his swamper went in and were just swamping out the base to fall it when the top broke out and landed on him.

As to the issue of loggers vs. fireline sawyers, I would agree that they are different disciplines. I know I wouldn't be a very good logger, I'm only concerned with getting the tree on the ground safely, and most loggers are concerned with production and board feet.

And Onelick, you're talking about making good choices so you can go home to your family, and that's a good thing to consider. But, think about this. A buddy of mine who was on the Wenatchee Rappellers, a C faller, was entrapped on the thirtymile fire, died in a car wreck 5 days ago. I mean, seriuosly, he survived thirtymile, went on to slide out of a helicopter onto fires, drop nasty hazard trees, and then he dies in a car wreck. When it's your time...

 

[SDownhill]

Fallers on the Fireline

I was referred to this site by a gentleman who noticed a discussion about our company, Northwest Timber Fallers. I've read through the posts. You folks have brought up some interesting topics. Thanks also for the mention of the "Union" aspect of the faller cooperative. Though, I have to say, forming a union was the furthest thing from anyone's mind when this whole thing began. And, it still is. Frankly, our guys just wanted to work and were tired of the Good Ole Boy Network blocking them until all of the "brothers, cousins, nephews, sons and drinking buddies" of those "in charge" got hired.

So, for clarification sake, the Northwest Timber Fallers Cooperative gave way to an S-Corp. in 2003. Now, NWTF is operated in compliance with all state and federal regulatory rules governing business operations, and well as wildland firefighting companies - because that is what we do.

For the most part, fallers didn't understand what a worker cooperative was. They DO understand what an S-Corp. is. And they like getting fire assignments and a pay check, as well as being covered with Worker Compensation, having unemployment insurance, general liability & loggers broadform coverage, life insurance, accident insurance, firefighter training, and high quality PPE.

Now, in terms of fallers cutting burning trees...folks, our fallers were cutting what they were asked to cut by agency personnel. Shortly after becoming an S-Corp. we asked for an OROSHA consultancy. Going through that process helped us, as a company, tremendously. We realized that our fallers (with experience ranging from 7 - 39 years) were under the belief that they HAD to cut the trees they were asked to cut or they would be ousted from the fire incident. Following the OROSHA consultancy, we implemented a new policy. Each faller had the ultimate determination whether they would cut a tree or not. We discussed this policy at length with the agency power saw folks, upper level fire management, etc. Now, our fallers feel confident that they can accurately assess the level of risk associated with felling a tree, and if they determine the risk is not prudent, they say so, the tree if flagged and an alternative plan is made to mitigate the hazard tree. We have yet to have even one falling team removed from a fire for following this protocol. Agency fire management has wholeheartedly supported their decisions.

In addition, we have also moved to encourage cooling the tree down, or addressing the flame and heat, if a tree flares up (due to oxygen getting to internal embers within a tree). This was discussed at length in previous posts. This is an ongoing issue, and needs to be supported by water handling equipment on the fire. It also needs to be supported by the agency team overseeing the incident...and fallers need to ask. As many of you know, most fallers just "handle it." They do what they have to do to get the job done. We stress the fact that their lives are more important than cutting down any burning tree. And all of our decisions need to be made with that in mind.

So, thanks for discussing these very important topics on this site. If any of you have other areas of concern, ideas, or thoughts, feel free to contact us. Our contact information is on our website: www.nwtimberfallers.com. We have 60+ commercial fallers on our roster this year. We anticipate it being quite an active fire season. Whether you're a tree service, timber faller or firefighter, stay safe! Think. Make sound decisions.

Last, I just want to stress the fact that the Faller Module program which now exists in the Pacific Northwest was created through a collaborative effort of folks in private industry AND land management personnel in fire operations. If we hadn't approached it as a team effort, it wouldn't have happened.

Shari Downhill
Pres., Northwest Timber Fallers

PS - For the gentleman who mentioned my college student status...I graduate in June with my Masters degree in Adult Education/Workplace Training from Oregon State University (Go Beavs!). My focus has been creating a training program to prepare commercial timber fallers for work on the fireline.

Also, Alan Wyatt was the faller who was killed on the Missionary Ridge Fire in Colorado. He was not my husband. Ken Downhill is my husband. And he is very much alive...and very much ready for me to get done with my college program. Ciao...

 

[tek9tim]

Frankly, our guys just wanted to work and were tired of the Good Ole Boy Network blocking them until all of the "brothers, cousins, nephews, sons and drinking buddies" of those "in charge" got hired.

Seems like the newer "best value" contracting system will help quality outfits get more assignments while weeding out the weaker ones.

Now, in terms of fallers cutting burning trees...folks, our fallers were cutting what they were asked to cut by agency personnel. Shortly after becoming an S-Corp. we asked for an OROSHA consultancy. Going through that process helped us, as a company, tremendously. We realized that our fallers (with experience ranging from 7 - 39 years) were under the belief that they HAD to cut the trees they were asked to cut or they would be ousted from the fire incident. Following the OROSHA consultancy, we implemented a new policy. Each faller had the ultimate determination whether they would cut a tree or not. We discussed this policy at length with the agency power saw folks, upper level fire management, etc. Now, our fallers feel confident that they can accurately assess the level of risk associated with felling a tree, and if they determine the risk is not prudent, they say so, the tree if flagged and an alternative plan is made to mitigate the hazard tree. We have yet to have even one falling team removed from a fire for following this protocol. Agency fire management has wholeheartedly supported their decisions.

If your cutters were simply cutting trees because agency personel were asking them to cut them, that sucks. Every agency sawyer is trained to walk away from a tree (or ANY fire assignment) that they don't think is safe. It's right there in the IRPG that every single person on the line is supposed to carry: "how to properly refuse risk" in the green pages. Yes, you're completely correct in that management will fully support you. It's not so much "git 'er done" anymore as it is "git 'er done safely". When I'm certifing guys for their B-cert I always try to ask them to cut a tree that's more complex than they should be dealing with, then see what choice they make, NEVER let them actually cut it, and discuss declining assignments.

 

[Gologit]

Mrs. Downhill...thanks for the information. As far as leaving the choice up to the faller..it's really the only way. If people don't like that, well...I'd rather be run off than packed out. All the best to you and good luck with your organization. Bob