cutting tips please.

[vince]

This may be a dumb ? but i searched the search forum and couldn't find anything on how to prevent a barber chair from happening so my question is is there a way to cut a tree without having it barber chair or does it depend on all sorts of variables including lean type of wood and so on.

 

[DanManofStihl]

When we do tree work that we think might barber chair we wrap 4 or 5 heavy duty chains around it about a foot from the bottom and about a foot higher every time. We also use wedges and cut at an angle. I hope this helps.

 

[Onelick]

Bore cutting and setting the thickness of the hinge first, then cutting back towards the back, leaving a backstrap, set a wedge if need be, then cut the strap. Best method I've found yet. Basic Game of Logging stuff.

 

[mike385]

I agree with Onelick, bore cut, set hinge thickness, look for a escape path. I went through the game of logging cutting trees that were on a 30 to 40 degree slope. All trees were at least 18 inches breast high also alot were in the 4 foot diameter.
mike

 

[jp hallman]

Bore cutting and setting the thickness of the hinge first, then cutting back towards the back, leaving a backstrap, set a wedge if need be, then cut the strap. Best method I've found yet. Basic Game of Logging stuff.

I agree, best and safest method. If the tree's over four feet or so, cut through the sapwood a few inchs on each side too. Then cut the "holding post" you left on the backside out from the hinge.

 

[ajjohnsons]

Hi Vince,
Douglas Dent wrote a great book "Professional Timber Falling", you can buy it from Baileys.This book has a lot to offer. Al.

 

[Tree Sling'r]

We make deeper undercuts in certain situations and that helps. On a bigger tree (if I am worried) I will bore into the middle of the tree through my undercut and get rid of a few inches of wood. Your middle wood is what will make a barberchair. Anything on the side will just tear out and that is what we call stump pull. When you start your back cut, just scribe your cut before you start sawing and look at what you have for hinge on both sides. Dawg in and saw your scribe, get both sides sawed up where you have sufficient hinge and leave the middle wood for last - what you have bored will save a barber chair and hassle (unless of course it too big with too much of a lean) and will not have anything to do with where the tree will fall. Your outside hinges along with your undercut will determine the lay of the tree i.e. compensation.
I am a better shower than sayer - hope this makes any sense.

 

[smokechase II]

Vince:
I don't believe Dents book covers the bore out the back method. Most would consider that the safest but I don't think it was in existence or widely understood back then. Dent's book did cover doing a face as far in as you could get it, making sure it was wide, doing two angle cuts that formed a triangle and they at least nipped the holding wood at the corners, then with your sharp saw cutting briskly through the remaining triangle.
Gerry Beraneck's (sp?) book; titled something like "Fundamentals of General Tree Work", also lists a Coos Bay cut. I have no familiarity with it but would recommend that you have both books on the shelf.
We had a pro cutter that I thought was the best faller/teacher I've ever seen tell us that while the bore was good, he never had a heavy leaner that the Dent identified method, (it actually dates from the X-cut days), above couldn't handle and that he was concerned with the bore method in larger West Coast Trees and bars too short with either method.
I would also suggest that there should be no wedging on a heavy leaner. That could assist a barber chair event, not prevent it. If you were to force the tree over early with wedges or have an untimely wind, either of those could contribute to the barber chair. You want to cut everything you can before it commits.
While working with a cutter on a NE Oregon fire this last summer, he cut a heavy leaning Larch with the bore method. It slabbed up the back just prior to finishing the cut. {Larch was used by pioneers for split rail fences and shakes-because of this splitting ability}. Not anywhere as dangerous as a barber chair, but potentially not good.
Another pro cutter told me of doing a bore cut out the back where the tree did a root pull just as he was finishing his cut. That root came close to grabbing him and pulling him toward the tree. This could be mitigated by cutting the root to stop this prior to the bore cut.
So while you should regard the bore out the back as the best, please be aware of what a complicated world falling is.
The escape path from any potential barber chair is of extreme importance.

 

[rebelman]

All good advice. This may sound like a joke but make sure and notch it. That's the smiley face before the back cut.

 

[Freakingstang]

Never heard the term barber chair before? Anyone care to explain what that is? Thanks

Steve

 

[smokechase II]

Barber Chair:
A heavy leaning tree falls but the holding wood near the horizontal cuts is no longer the fulcrum. The fulcrum can move say 5' - 40' up a split.
So the tree is now sort of teeter tottered. Whatever the height of the split to the new fulcrum is also the length of the butt that is in the air behind the stump.
This will come smashing down. Possibly on an area the faller thought was safe with real power.
Barber chairs are most common in heavy leaning green trees. Other factors such as wind can physically duplicate the effects of a heavy lean.
The stump has a high backed 'barber chair' look.

 

[rebelman]

I just remember some small ten inch or so diameter treees barber chairing on me because I didn't notch. and storm damage I kind of coudn't notch. If you saw my hair, you'd know I stay away from barber chairs.

 

[NORMZILLA44]

ajjohnsons, you took the words right out of my my good advice. Have a copy of dents bok right here. Smokechase, dents book did cover all the boring technique. I would say it was more widely understood back then. There isnt many guys out ther that know half or even a quarter of that stuff, and lok at the trees they were up against. Also vince barber, chair can occur in many situations not just a heavy leaning tree. Take ajjohnsons advice get that book many good tips for the learner, or pro. Dont just listen to anybody when it comes to tree falling unless you have seen them in action, because youre life in in youre hands. And everbody has their own methods some work some dont, they are not always right just look under the injury, and fatalaty section. Start with the book try saw small trees, dont get in a hurry or take short cuts, and dont get over confident double check, triple check think things through. STAY ALIVE.

 

[Tree Sling'r]

Never heard the term barber chair before? Anyone care to explain what that is? Thanks

Steve

Heres one for you, I did this one last spring in Chico, CA. There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens.

 

[Gumneck]

Heres one for you, I did this one last spring in Chico, CA. There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens.

Hey Slingr, can't tell from pic but did you have notch on the side facing away from camera? Pls share the details. I bet all that tearing was loud n scearry!

 

[Tree Sling'r]

Hey Slingr, can't tell from pic but did you have notch on the side facing away from camera? Pls share the details. I bet all that tearing was loud n scearry!

Yeah my undercut was facing the sameway the tree landed. I guess if you never really seen a barberchair they can be scarier than they often times really are. Don't get me wrong - they are all spooky, but this one was no-nail biter. I get out of the way - so I am usually always safe. A friend of mine barberchaired a 4 1/2 foot shasta fir a few years back that split about 40 feet up. Shasta fir is used for veneir (spelling) so it is peeled. The mill was unable to use that log. It had over 2000bf in just that cut. So rather than facing the consequences the cat skinner buried the log. Everyone wondered whatever happened to that first cut.

 

[smokechase II]

Tree Sling"r:
Boy, have you got my attention.
"There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens."
In hindsight, sounds like boring wouldn't have made any difference. If you had nipped the corners on the holding wood, could that have helped?
Did the wind come up; did you drive a wedge too hard on a leaner?
Any thoughts on changing cutting technique?

I have had barber chairs on smaller 3" -6" diameter trees that I was thinning.
Knew what the risk was and I was just back cutting, (no undercut), on green young leaners. I was well positioned and not at risk from the tree, but since then I've heard stories about the saw being grabbed and flung even by smaller trees and I wouldn't pull that short-cut stunt again. (I was also curious to study a barber chair event on a small scale).
The times I've seen barber chair stumps in the woods have all been with small face cuts that only went in 25 % max.

How big was your face on that barber chair?

 

[Freakingstang]

Heres one for you, I did this one last spring in Chico, CA. There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens.

WOW, Can honestly say I've never seen that before. Does it have to do with the type of tree (firs and evergreens) or can it happen to anything? I would imagine that that would be fairly hard to achieve with something like oak, or a real hard, hardwood. ?? no? maybe?

 

[Tree Sling'r]

Tree Sling"r:
Boy, have you got my attention.
"There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens."
In hindsight, sounds like boring wouldn't have made any difference. If you had nipped the corners on the holding wood, could that have helped?
Did the wind come up; did you drive a wedge too hard on a leaner?
Any thoughts on changing cutting technique?

I have had barber chairs on smaller 3" -6" diameter trees that I was thinning.
Knew what the risk was and I was just back cutting, (no undercut), on green young leaners. I was well positioned and not at risk from the tree, but since then I've heard stories about the saw being grabbed and flung even by smaller trees and I wouldn't pull that short-cut stunt again. (I was also curious to study a barber chair event on a small scale).
The times I've seen barber chair stumps in the woods have all been with small face cuts that only went in 25 % max.

How big was your face on that barber chair?

Smokecase, the reason this particular tree barberchaired was because it was a doug fir combined with wedging due to a lean. Doug fir is extremely tough wood and many times your hinge needs to be much narrower than it would like with a pine or a white fir. As far as the face cut and what not - nothing changed compared to the norm - and if I would have expected a barberchair I would have bored a little bit of wood out from the middle of the tree with the tip of my bar through the face cut side. And would have made a deeper undercut. Doug fir can be by far the most complicated evergreen I have ever worked with. Not because it is different or bigger or smaller but, just because it is so tough that it can sometimes cause unexpected issues such as this. But I would say 35% of the wood I cut is doug fir. Like I said there may have been a 1/2 of hinge wood, but wedging sometimes can do as much damage as it can do good. Maybe next time I will not wedge and destroy the thicket of sapplings underneath the lean of the tree.

 

[Tree Sling'r]

WOW, Can honestly say I've never seen that before. Does it have to do with the type of tree (firs and evergreens) or can it happen to anything? I would imagine that that would be fairly hard to achieve with something like oak, or a real hard, hardwood. ?? no? maybe?

Freakingstang - pretty much the species of the tree (doug fir) and the situation with the tree is why it barberchaired. There is other techniques I could have used to get it on the groud without incident - but, when nothing is expected the routine stays the same. And with that said - thats how people get hurt in this business. Obviously the unexpected is never expected.
I should also state that not all doug fir is that tough - just depends on the place. A lot of north slope wood is tougher than other areas. We jack a lot of big firs from streams and they are really soft and easy to work with. I suppose it could happen with any species though.