cutting tips please.

[smokechase II]

Tree Sling'r
One thing that sticks with me as I age more and more is the difference in species. Sometimes a particular technique will catch on in one setting, for good reason, at that location.
Had a bud that used to say that Doug Fir was the strength of Western Oregon. Framers, before nail guns, hated Red Fir 'cause it was so hard to drive a nail into.

 

[BlackenedTimber]

i had a barber chair with a 70 ft black walnut, about 26-28" DBH. of coarse, it was right next to a house that was being remodled... i dropped it away from the house, but of couse it barber chaired, and the entire damned thing hung up about 15 above the ground.... I almost wet myself... i thought it was going to fall off to the side and crush the house. It would have if we didnt get on it immediately with ropes and hoist. I still had to stand under it to finish cutting the chair, to drop it away from the house. It was a mess. Everything done to notch and drop that tree was done right, it just happened though. Sometimes you cant control it.

 

[clearance]

The species has nothing to do with it, I like falling Doug. fir cause it is strong predictable wood. Some wood is just bad in itself for chairing, like cottonwood or maple, not Doug.fir. Pay attention to what you are doing and you can directionally slam Doug. fir all day every day with no drama. Barberchairs have killed lots of people in B.C.... because they made it happen.

 

[Tree Sling'r]

The species has nothing to do with it, I like falling Doug. fir cause it is strong predictable wood. Some wood is just bad in itself for chairing, like cottonwood or maple, not Doug.fir. Pay attention to what you are doing and you can directionally slam Doug. fir all day every day with no drama. Barberchairs have killed lots of people in B.C.... because they made it happen.

After reading back through my posts I made it sound like being a Doug Fir was the only reason the tree barber chaired. Doug Fir in itself is not the only reason - but, with it being as tough as it is with the wedging and difficult lean involved in the particular incident I was refering to is. The strength of the hinge that was left was why it barber chaired. But, don't give me that crap about doug fir not being bad for barberchairing. It is by far the worst evergreen for that. Your climate of doug fir is way different, it is different in W. Oregon and W. Washington as well - it is all softer - just look at the growth rings. That is why I stated some areas are tougher than others. I have cut soft doug fir for months straight and never had any issues. Then I have cut doug fir so hard on the butt that a modded MS660 with seven tooth sprocket would hardly get through it with out back barring, tree that are 100 years old and maybe 20 inch DBH. That is the stuff that barberchairs, not very often but it does - even when everything is done right. I do this everyday, I have for 13 years in 5 different states and have noticed different methods for the same wood in different places. I will admit many barberchairs are created by neglect, but often it is nothing more that freak incident. I know where your coming from, but things are different everywhere.

 

[Gologit]

After reading back through my posts I made it sound like being a Doug Fir was the only reason the tree barber chaired. Doug Fir in itself is not the only reason - but, with it being as tough as it is with the wedging and difficult lean involved in the particular incident I was refering to is. The strength of the hinge that was left was why it barber chaired. But, don't give me that crap about doug fir not being bad for barberchairing. It is by far the worst evergreen for that. Your climate of doug fir is way different, it is different in W. Oregon and W. Washington as well - it is all softer - just look at the growth rings. That is why I stated some areas are tougher than others. I have cut soft doug fir for months straight and never had any issues. Then I have cut doug fir so hard on the butt that a modded MS660 with seven tooth sprocket would hardly get through it with out back barring, tree that are 100 years old and maybe 20 inch DBH. That is the stuff that barberchairs, not very often but it does - even when everything is done right. I do this everyday, I have for 13 years in 5 different states and have noticed different methods for the same wood in different places. I will admit many barberchairs are created by neglect, but often it is nothing more that freak incident. I know where your coming from, but things are different everywhere.

You got it right. Too many people look for some kind of fool proof formula for dropping trees. They want some kind of procedural guide that absolutely guarantees where each and every tree will fall if they just do this and that and the other thing according to guidelines. Wouldn't it be nice if things worked that way. Every tree is different. Two trees of the same species within ten feet of each other might cut completely different. Stay on your toes..be ready to haul out of there...and don't ever expect the tree to do exactly what you want. Talk to the old fallers or better still...listen to them. They got old in this business for a reason.

 

[046]

great info...

 

[logbutcher]

Think, plan your cut, plan the 'escape', know the wood, wedge to fell WHERE you want the tree to go.
Listen to the Game of Logging guys. It is some new stuff, but works. Try the program that is used in CPL courses (Certified Professional Logger). And yes, it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks. I've used it for a few years now and it has changed the way I fell, made it faster, and NO barber chairs, or those close calls with the butt chasing me as the tree drops.
Remember that a barber chair ruins the $$$$ of the tree and can kill.
Basics:
1. plan the fell and hinge.
2. Open face mouth with about 90 degree angle-no triangle baby 45 cut.
3. Bore cut leaving a hinge that is planned to hold the tree for the right fall.
4. Use techniques--wedges, or a "strap"--that will let the tree fall where you want it and give you a safe escape route.
5. Stand back and watch .
Check out the GOL (Game of Logging) techniques. Many loggers here (smaller DBH than out west) use shorter bars for all cutting.
Happy trails.

 

[smokechase II]

logbutcher:
I have tried the GOL thing and like parts of it. However, I would not want to decrease the size of any craftsman’s tool chest, and that includes the knowledge tool chest.
Recommendation; don't limit yourself to just one technique.
I do very much agree that small faces are one of the primary contributors to barber chairs, if not the primary. Of all the barber chairs I've seen on stumps in the woods, they all had small faces. By that I mean shallow into the tree, like a GOL notch for depth.
By all means, make a high face, but don't short yourself on the depth to just a puny 25 percent in. Float that bar and get a decent face.
And take some of that center holding wood out with a bore cut from the front and/or nip the holding wood at the corners.
Sorry, but I'm gonna drop the Open face/bore the back technique for barber chair potentials. From now on it’s gonna be Open deep face/nip corners/bore the back.
Granted, that is not specified at http://www.memic.com/publications_library/ProductionFelling.pdf on pages 12 and 16.
But I just can't limit myself after seeing all those shallow faced barber chairs and reading what JimL and Tree Sling'r have to say. Getting down to a 1" or under holding wood hinge is just not enough. I'm gonna use every part of that knowledge tool chest.
(Trivia: My experience has also taught me that the holding wood/hinge will not stay intact anywhere near to the ground on dead trees, rotten wood and drought trees. Additionally, the width of that hinge needs to vary with different tree diameters etc., I.e. a narrow hinge will pull out soon on a bigger tree. What is narrow varies as you go from an 18" tree to a 4 foot tree. So I'd recommend that fallers beware of any specific holding wood rule and use knowledge to vary that holding wood width to get close to or achieve that 'to the ground' control.)
I'm currently putting together a powerpoint on strengths and weaknesses of Open Face Felling and would appreciate any photos or thoughts.
I'll be putting a draft out for comment in a couple months and would be thankful for any thoughts then also.

 

[smokechase II]

Sorry; a duplicate message now deleted

 

[046]

does anyone have any diagrams posted anywhere.

don't want to risk mistaking your meaning

 

[smokechase II]

046:
There is a pretty good site at http://www.memic.com/publications_library/ProductionFelling.pdf
Pages 12 & 16 talk about barber chairs a bit.

Later on, there are mentions of boring from the face side and cutting the holding wood at the corners (although different terms are used).

I'll see if I can come up with some more stuff later.

 

[clearance]

TreeSling-Sorry to assume all D-fir is the same, here it is awesome wood to fall, buck or build with. Predictable as the sun and moon (at least for me). The idea of a tree chairing scares me, I really try to be carefull, sharp, full saw, proper cuts to reduce chance. When you are logging you can't pack a 3/8, grade 70 transport chain with a grab hook around with you, but if you are a tree service get one from the truck and use it.

 

[logbutcher]

"Only You Can Prevent Barber Chairs" -Smokechase II

Listen to this guy. I would not want to decrease the size of any craftsman’s tool chest, and that includes the knowledge tool chest.
Recommendation; don't limit yourself to just one technique.
Part of all that Game of Logging/CPL/MEMIC program is called " PLAN ".
The corner nip is part of it all also. Since that program I don't use chains, comealongs, and walk away from hung up trees when I manufacture them:bang: . Use more wedges, except on those :censored: rotten hartwood jobs.
What a wimp, huh ? Surprising though, even for this PT hacker, how much faster the cutting goes. And, no more Russian Roulette with leaners.
Happy Trails.
PS Does MEMIC do programs in Oregon ?

 

[smokechase II]

Memic

I'll ask around, not aware of any classes.

 

[wradman]

I would say your tree has an extreme lean to it , if this is not the case you need to work on cleaning out your undercut and double checking your holding wood, sometime when in larger hemlock you can also put in small cuts on each side of the holding wood to prevent root pull and barber chairing put it creates a probem with seeing how much holding wood you have left. The other coments on boring work really well on heavy leaners or you can also apply a T cut.