Cylinder Honing

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Well, if you have any sense you can use a ball hone for a few seconds when you start the cylinder clean up to see what you are working with, and for a few seconds after to see if you missed anything before you put it in the washer.

If you don't have any sense, do something else.
 
There are various synthetic aluminum oxide abrasives that differ in their friability (toughness), but as far as I know their hardness doesn't vary much.

Corundum on this page refers to natural aluminum oxide, alumina to synthetic.
https://universalium.en-academic.com/294862/Hardness_of_prominent_abrasive_materials
Syn aluminum oxide is quite a bit softer. I don't have figures handy.
You mentioned friability and that's a good point. Sand is basically AO particles glued to paper. As such it rubs off easily. In addition the abrasive particles themselves are fairly delicate.
Silicone carbide coatings on the other hand are tough as nails as the SC is dispersed through a matrix of nickel. Sort of like concrete where the SC is aggregate and the nickel is Portland cement. As such they stuff is exceedingly tough and wear resistant while sand paper is not.
 
Syn aluminum oxide is quite a bit softer. I don't have figures handy.
You mentioned friability and that's a good point. Sand is basically AO particles glued to paper. As such it rubs off easily. In addition the abrasive particles themselves are fairly delicate.
Silicone carbide coatings on the other hand are tough as nails as the SC is dispersed through a matrix of nickel. Sort of like concrete where the SC is aggregate and the nickel is Portland cement. As such they stuff is exceedingly tough and wear resistant while sand paper is not.
Are you sure you're not thinking of garnet paper or crocus cloth? The synthetic aluminum oxide used in surface grinding wheels is certainly not a whole lot softer than SiC. The abrasive on crocus is especially soft.
 
its all about knowing your tools and the right tools for the job, then comes the hard part EXPERIENCE! without that your clutching at straws and hope it works out. with so many idiots on youtube saying they done this and that all with the best results, never see the mountain of junk saws thats ruined off camera. There are some good helpful people on youtube but if you havent got the experience in the first place im afraid youll be wasting a lot of time and money and even then may never get it.
 
its all about knowing your tools and the right tools for the job, then comes the hard part EXPERIENCE! without that your clutching at straws and hope it works out. with so many idiots on youtube saying they done this and that all with the best results, never see the mountain of junk saws thats ruined off camera. There are some good helpful people on youtube but if you havent got the experience in the first place im afraid youll be wasting a lot of time and money and even then may never get it.
Exactly. Why I never encounter plasma sprayed coatings in my machine shop (and hope I never do, I do know with snowmobile Nikasal sprayed cylinder bores, breaching the coated cylinder bores, renders the cylinder as junk. They may or may not operate normally for a time but over the long haul, they loose the ability to create adequate compression to ignite the mixture because the sprayed coating looses it's sealing ability. Nickasil is nothing but a production technique to lower mass production costs and it provides a more efficient and quicker heat transfer method, rather than a steel pressed in cylinder liner., far as I know at least.

Like I stated above, I have very rarely encountered any sprayed on (plasma sprayed coatings) in the shop other than sled cylinders for my personal stuff and I've always just replaced the cylinders per the OEM instructions.

Outta my ballpark mostly on it except to say any plasma coating is very thin in the 0.002-0.004 range so any 'honing' of it (no matter what type of hone you employ) will compromise the coating layer and most likely will compromise the coating somewhere and will most likely it will be at the transition point where the port edges intersect the bore itself because no matter what type of hone you use (ball or fixed stone) you use, when the hone encounters the port, the spring pressure on the stones or the wire spring pressure on the honing balls will try to push them into the ports and compromise the plating at the edges of the ports because of that action. I do possess both fixed stone on spring loaded arms as well as ball hones, fine and course but I've never honed any 2 stroke cylinders except small engine 4 strokes and then only to remove glazing and carbon rings at the top of the piston stroke on a rebuild and in my view, any hone, ball or fixed on arms is still a cutting tool.

Back when I raced sleds (I owned an AC Thunder Cat lake racer and of course to get maximum power, we always ran it on the ragged edge of lean and more than one time had metal transfer from running too hot and had to remove aluminum piston material from the piston that stuck to the Nikasil coated bores, and we used easy off oven cleaner and a sharp steel pick, another story for another time and not here and the very lightly honed the coated bore to remove any high spots that could impact compression sealing during piston travel, so long as the ring wasn't stuck in the piston groove that is which always entailed a new slug and a new cylinder, but always a very light and careful honing, we could get by with doing that and believe me, we went through a lot of cylinders and pistons anyway.

Remember we always jetted for maximum power and speed and the engine always ran tuned expansion chambers which is not the norm on any chainsaw that I know of, chainsaws use really inefficient but quieter mufflers that are basically incapable of scavenging exhaust gases from a cylinder in the first place, You can 'hog out a muffler' to attempt at scavenging exhaust gases (and make any saw obnoxiously loud) but no can muffler will efficiently scavenge exhaust gas like a tuned to the exhaust stroke pulse like a true expansion chamber can and will.

If anyone is interested, I have a pile of 2 stroke Artic Cat race parts as well as stock parts scattered around the shop collecting dust. I got out of sleds many years ago, got to be too expensive and too dangerous for this old man. Something about running 150 plus on a frozen lake, while it really boots your testosterone levels can kill you in a flash. I also have a few sets of Artic Cat racing leathers and race helmets in good condition that I'd like to get rid of. Tee shirts and items as well. I believe I even have carbide track stud sets, Woody's was one of our sponsors and I got a lot of go fast parts from them. I do know I have a new set of stingers in the box, never used for a 1000 TC upstairs, those are OEM Black Magic. I'd give most of it away for free if anyone has a use for it actually. I don't, just dust collectors now.
 
Exactly. Why I never encounter plasma sprayed coatings in my machine shop (and hope I never do, I do know with snowmobile Nikasal sprayed cylinder bores, breaching the coated cylinder bores, renders the cylinder as junk. They may or may not operate normally for a time but over the long haul, they loose the ability to create adequate compression to ignite the mixture because the sprayed coating looses it's sealing ability. Nickasil is nothing but a production technique to lower mass production costs and it provides a more efficient and quicker heat transfer method, rather than a steel pressed in cylinder liner., far as I know at least.

Like I stated above, I have very rarely encountered any sprayed on (plasma sprayed coatings) in the shop other than sled cylinders for my personal stuff and I've always just replaced the cylinders per the OEM instructions.

Outta my ballpark mostly on it except to say any plasma coating is very thin in the 0.002-0.004 range so any 'honing' of it (no matter what type of hone you employ) will compromise the coating layer and most likely will compromise the coating somewhere and will most likely it will be at the transition point where the port edges intersect the bore itself because no matter what type of hone you use (ball or fixed stone) you use, when the hone encounters the port, the spring pressure on the stones or the wire spring pressure on the honing balls will try to push them into the ports and compromise the plating at the edges of the ports because of that action. I do possess both fixed stone on spring loaded arms as well as ball hones, fine and course but I've never honed any 2 stroke cylinders except small engine 4 strokes and then only to remove glazing and carbon rings at the top of the piston stroke on a rebuild and in my view, any hone, ball or fixed on arms is still a cutting tool.

Back when I raced sleds (I owned an AC Thunder Cat lake racer and of course to get maximum power, we always ran it on the ragged edge of lean and more than one time had metal transfer from running too hot and had to remove aluminum piston material from the piston that stuck to the Nikasil coated bores, and we used easy off oven cleaner and a sharp steel pick, another story for another time and not here and the very lightly honed the coated bore to remove any high spots that could impact compression sealing during piston travel, so long as the ring wasn't stuck in the piston groove that is which always entailed a new slug and a new cylinder, but always a very light and careful honing, we could get by with doing that and believe me, we went through a lot of cylinders and pistons anyway.

Remember we always jetted for maximum power and speed and the engine always ran tuned expansion chambers which is not the norm on any chainsaw that I know of, chainsaws use really inefficient but quieter mufflers that are basically incapable of scavenging exhaust gases from a cylinder in the first place, You can 'hog out a muffler' to attempt at scavenging exhaust gases (and make any saw obnoxiously loud) but no can muffler will efficiently scavenge exhaust gas like a tuned to the exhaust stroke pulse like a true expansion chamber can and will.

If anyone is interested, I have a pile of 2 stroke Artic Cat race parts as well as stock parts scattered around the shop collecting dust. I got out of sleds many years ago, got to be too expensive and too dangerous for this old man. Something about running 150 plus on a frozen lake, while it really boots your testosterone levels can kill you in a flash. I also have a few sets of Artic Cat racing leathers and race helmets in good condition that I'd like to get rid of. Tee shirts and items as well. I believe I even have carbide track stud sets, Woody's was one of our sponsors and I got a lot of go fast parts from them. I do know I have a new set of stingers in the box, never used for a 1000 TC upstairs, those are OEM Black Magic. I'd give most of it away for free if anyone has a use for it actually. I don't, just dust collectors now.
Nicicil is in all actuality probaly more expensive than cast iron bore cylinders.
It's used because it has many advantages in life span, weight savings, heat transfer and ability to hold oil.
Keep in mind that iron bore cylinders are not just pressed in. In a OEM application like say a CR500 cylinder the cast iron sleeve is put in a mold and the the aluminum is cast around it. Very cheap production method.
As for ball hones. When changing pistons due to wear or exceeding operating hours I have always deglazed a Brush Research ball hones specifically made for the job. I have done many, many cylinders and never damaged a single one, including the port edges/transitions.
I started doing this on the advice of Eric Gorr who worked for US Chrome BTW.
One other thing Nicisil is not a plasma spray coating. It's electro plated on. Kawasaki used a plasma spray coating and it was inferior to Nicisil, Suzuki I believe did the same for a period of time.
 
I love what I seen from redoing my first race saw many years ago with a ball hone from BR. I ended up with the whole set to deglaze my cylinders from there on.

In the wrong hands yes folks can ruin anything. Use common sense using anything. :cheers:


The 046 D cylinder

Showing crosshatching to deglaze. Could run just like it is.
But I like fresh crosshatch with new rings.

Before and after


123.jpg
s046ddddddd.jpgs046dddddddd.jpgs046dddd.jpg
 
Nickasyl is in all actuality probaly more expensive than cast iron bore cylinders.
It's used because it has many advantages in life span, weight savings, heat transfer and ability to hold oil.
Keep in mind that iron bore cylinders are not just pressed in. In a OEM application like say a CR500 cylinder the cast iron sleeve is put in a mold and the the aluminum is cast around it. Very cheap production method.
As for ball hones. When changing pistons due to wear or exceeding operating hours I have always deglazed a Brush Research ball hones specifically made for the job. I have done many, many cylinders and never damaged a single one, including the port edges/transitions.
I started doing this on the advice of Eric Gorr who worked for US Chrome BTW.
One other thing Nicisil is not a plasma spray coating. It's electro plated on. Kawasaki used a plasma spray coating and it was inferior to Nicisil, Suzuki I believe did the same for a period of time.
Like I stated, nothing I fiddle with anymore and I'm not familiar with how cast iron sleeves are installed in small engines, only in large diesel engines where the liners are installed in a completely machined bore and sealed at the bottom with high temperature '0' rings and the installed height is sealed with a spacer plate (in the case of Caterpillar diesels) or the head gasket. Of course that only applies to linered engines and not parent bore engines, that can have the liners bored out so long as that dimension don't exceed the maximum allowable tolerance predicated by the engine builder. Only engines I run a ball hone in or a fixed stone on spring loaded arms are small displacement 4 strokes and that isn't very often either. Just did a rebuild on a Generac 1000 cc V Twin for a friend of mine as his was consuming an excessive amount of oil when running his standby genset. The oil control ring had lost it's 'grip' on the bore on one cylinder, but other than that the slugs were in good shape and so where the valves so I adjusted them to factory spec (it's an OHV motor) and replaced the rings in both bores and lightly honed them with a fixed stone hone and buttoned it back up. It's Nickasil btw.
 
I have gone through plating around the exhaust port on one or two.
That is where the greatest amount of damage can be done,the edges of all the ports. The balls spring out into the ports when passing across and rip at the edges of the plating on the port bevels. I have a few old jugs others performed honing on trying to remove scratches, they honed too long and ripped up the plating. If honing at all it should just be a short burst one direction and another in the opposite direction like 10-15 seconds each way, that would be less likely to damage anything. Hand honing has done what I need the majority of the time, wash the cylinder out really well after, use something like Dawn dish soap and very hot water to remove all grit. I tried a little experiment years ago I washed the cylinder in the parts cleaner I thought really well but then put it in a steel pot with dish soap and water, boiled it for a few mins on the stove, then carefully poured off the water to see what was left in the bottom of the pot, when wiped out with white paper towel I found a good deal of grit that was likely hiding up in the transfers just waiting for the engine to run and make its way back to the bore.
 
That is where the greatest amount of damage can be done,the edges of all the ports. The balls spring out into the ports when passing across and rip at the edges of the plating on the port bevels. I have a few old jugs others performed honing on trying to remove scratches, they honed too long and ripped up the plating. If honing at all it should just be a short burst one direction and another in the opposite direction like 10-15 seconds each way, that would be less likely to damage anything. Hand honing has done what I need the majority of the time, wash the cylinder out really well after, use something like Dawn dish soap and very hot water to remove all grit. I tried a little experiment years ago I washed the cylinder in the parts cleaner I thought really well but then put it in a steel pot with dish soap and water, boiled it for a few mins on the stove, then carefully poured off the water to see what was left in the bottom of the pot, when wiped out with white paper towel I found a good deal of grit that was likely hiding up in the transfers just waiting for the engine to run and make its way back to the bore.
I have honed many cylinders using ball hones and never screwed one up.
Start at the start and size the hone right, apply a light lubricant and run the hone in and out a few times. Should take no more than 10 seconds.
Keep in mind what you are doing is actually deglazing.byour not honing to size.
 
I have honed many cylinders using ball hones and never screwed one up.
Start at the start and size the hone right, apply a light lubricant and run the hone in and out a few times. Should take no more than 10 seconds.
Keep in mind what you are doing is actually deglazing.byour not honing to size.
Exactly, it is not for removing scratches or aluminum transfer, running the hone for several minutes trying to remove either scratches or transfer is what can cause damage, used for deglazing with a short cycle time should be safe.
 
Exactly, it is not for removing scratches or aluminum transfer, running the hone for several minutes trying to remove either scratches or transfer is what can cause damage, used for deglazing with a short cycle time should be safe.

And to add to that, it needs to be run slow enough so that the balls aren’t clacking off the inside edges of the ports.

Personally, all I have ever used is 80 grit in a slotted mandrel. And muriatic acid to remove the bulk of transferred aluminum
 
Exactly, it is not for removing scratches or aluminum transfer, running the hone for several minutes trying to remove either scratches or transfer is what can cause damage, used for deglazing with a short cycle time should be safe.
I know some have other opinions, but to me the right way to remove transfer is with muritic acid. I just don't like the idea of using abrasives for this.
 
However told you that is full of it.
I have used ball hones on two stroke cylinders for decades with good results.
Never ruined a plated cylinder with a ball hone. I hone cylinders couple strokes clockwise, couple strokes counterclockwise in a solvent tank with solvent flowing into cylinder as I hone.
 
Remove the transfer with the acid. The DEGLAZING (not honing) is for the rings to seat properly. Do not overdo it, as stated above.
Not oversizing, just cleaning.
I agree completely.
And to be clear what "deglazing" means is that you remove any buildup that exists between the silicon carbide particles and some of the nickle to expose new silicone carbide particles. This creates a fresh surface for ring seating.
 
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