Dangerous species

[CATreeTops]

I am preparing myself strategically to work some eucalyptus on my property to practice rigging, positioning, etc., without the worry of a customer to hurry or be particular about the process. Anyway, parts of a very rough bark species on the property has dropped some large, thick branches over the few years I've had the property. I've read this is a common property of Eucalypts to drop large branches and kills quite a few tree workers and campers who get in the wrong way of the natural behavior of the tree.

I figure I can reduce risk by not relying entirely on the branch to crotch over by wrapping the friction saver around the main stem...

I thought I'd ask if you guys take special precautions with Eucalyptus, or ways to identify outgoing branches on that type of tree, and what other tree species give guys reason to pause before trusting them to climb? I'm sure there are a few!

Thanks!

 

[pdqdl]

I don't know anything about Eucalyptus, but it sounds like you are heading for a "big-time" job without any "big-time" experience to keep you out of trouble.

I won't offer any advice, other than it sounds like you are planning an accident.

 

[CATreeTops]

I don't know anything about Eucalyptus, but it sounds like you are heading for a "big-time" job without any "big-time" experience to keep you out of trouble.

I won't offer any advice, other than it sounds like you are planning an accident.

Fair enough. Does anyone have any insight to the species or others you're wary of?

 

[RacerX]

Do you have any photo's of the tree?

 

[derwoodii]

Ok down under OZ gums are called widow maker & claims made that they drop limbs without warning etc.

Yes summer drop or nil wind shed has been investigated and it does happen. Typically the culprit forest smooth barked gum species in an open urban area with lower limb elongated by photo-tropism. The summer drop a suspect response to high temperature reducing timber strength. The nil wind to poor union or taper within an elongated limb a small fracture or unseen structure fault is often found after shed, so the weakest link fails.

The claim of gums being a danger tree in Australia may be. However if you live in a land that greater % of trees are gums then you are by chance far more likely to be hit by a gum if unlucky enough to be under one at the very rare and wrong time. You would be very very unlucky to be hit by an Oak or American elm limb down here. The converse said about gum limb hits in say Canada or most part of US, perhaps not San Fran bay as here they are every where.

Trees vs people is a emotional topic, sadly the facts don't add up. Here's a new study extract from the UK.

Centre for Decision Analysis and Risk Management at Middlesex University to
quantify the risk to the UK public of fatal and non-fatal injuries from falling or fallen
trees and branches. The research identified 64 deaths during the ten years after 1
January 19994. With a UK population of roughly 60 million, this leads to an overall
estimated risk of about one death in 10 million people per year from falling or fallen
trees and branches.
So far as non-fatal injuries in the UK are concerned, the number of accident and
emergency cases attributable to being struck by trees (about 55 a year) is
exceedingly small compared with the roughly 2.9 million leisure-related A&E cases
per year. Footballs (262,000), children's swings (10,900) and even wheelie bins
(2,200) are involved in many more incidents.

It a big doc much to read but some interesting numbers in it.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/website/forestry.nsf/byunique/infd-7t6bs5

With respect to your gums treat em like an Oak similar in structure and wood strength. Work em slow and get the feel an be prepared for hard wear on your saw chain.

More to read
http://www.global-garden.com.au/burnley/jul99dte.htm

 

[jefflovstrom]

Fair enough. Does anyone have any insight to the species or others you're wary of?

Eucalyptus sideroxylon ( red iron bark ).
Jeff

 

[S Mc]

CATreeTops, I commend you for your efforts to become educated and experienced on a procedure prior to trying under the pressures of a commercial situation. That is always the best approach.

I see from your bio that you are new to the industry. With that said, you don't say how much climbing experience you actually have. Before doing ANY rigging, you MUST be a proficient and experienced climber with the ability to handle all the tools required in a proficient and safe manner.

Ignoring those prerequisites can get you killed. Handling a chainsaw competently on the ground does not instantly translate to handling one safely in a tree.

Knowledge of trees is also mandatory. Taking the view point that there are dangerous species can blind you in two ways.

It can either prejudice you unnecessarily or cause you to overlook a problem in a tree species you deem "safe".

A dangerous tree is one with a serious defect...it doesn't matter what species it is. It doesn't matter how big, old or where. Those factors just add to the degree of danger.

Speaking specifically of eucalyptus, one of the main causes of limb failure is excessive tip weight on a limb that can no longer handle it. Take off the tip weight and you have a lot stronger limb to deal with, unless there is a defect in the limb compromising it further. Getting the tip weight off may, or may not, be a big issue. (No, Montana doesn't have eucs...but we came up from California which does.)

Derwoodii makes an excellent point about prejudices with dangerous trees. If the predominant tree in an area is one species, well, that is the species you are going to have the most difficulty with.

Sylvia

 

[CATreeTops]

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies. Eucs were apparently brought over from Aussie to CA during the gold rush era since the climate here in CA is similar they've done well. There are a lot of them in a lot of yards, parks, etc.

The blue gum is a notorious version apparently, but this one I'm particularly eyeing is a rougher bark with long thin leaves. I'll post a picture. This type seems to grow in leaning positions and seems to have erratic and asymmetrical growth habits. With trimming they seem to look more "normal" and less hazardous, but left to their own devices, they grow precarious looking limbs and don't seem too sentimental about what sometimes very large limbs they'll drop - even though this isn't even the (blue) gum. The global-garden link above seems to indicate eucs in general are notorious trees. Something additional I've read is that in dryer periods they'll shed limbs to preserve water. This is a tree that's used to surviving in dryer climates, so shedding is an adaptive measure its taken apparently.

I'll post a photo as that's often worth more than a 1000 words and see if that strikes anything in particular.

 

[tree md]

Sylvia makes a great point about the limbs being more likely to fail when they are tip heavy. I always prefer to natural crotch with my rigging line if I can get away with it. I am old school and learned that way. If I can get away with it I will go up top to a good central leader or at a point where I can lower to the desired drop zone and take the top out leaving a good fork to rig from. When you take the top out or cut the weight out of a natural crotch you create a much stronger point to rig from. The more weight you take out of a tree the safer and more structurally sound it becomes to rig from as you are bringing it down. I preferably will not break out a block and rig from the spar until I begin to bring the main stem down. I am always looking for a natural crotch to lower the brush and limb logs from for speed sake as well as the natural fork will hold more than the block and sling on a structurally sound tree.

If you have no experience at this it would be preferable to have someone on hand who is so they can keep an eye on you and offer advice. If not, take it in small pieces and think it through before you make every cut. Large removals and technical rigging is like a chess game, you have to think three moves ahead. It becomes easier as you learn how certain species of wood reacts when you make cuts as well as knowing the proper cuts to make. You got to think if I make this cut A, B and C is going to happen. Am I cutting out a particular limb I am going to have to rig from later on in the operation? Have I untied from the piece of wood I am about to cut? Am I sure my rigging line is not going to cross my climbing line and melt through. There is so much that you have to keep in mind when doing a rigging operation. There are usually no second chances to get it right. Especially if you are trying to lower big wood.

 

[CATreeTops]

Sylvia makes a great point about the limbs being more likely to fail when they are tip heavy. I always prefer to natural crotch with my rigging line if I can get away with it. I am old school and learned that way. If I can get away with it I will go up top to a good central leader or at a point where I can lower to the desired drop zone and take the top out leaving a good fork to rig from. When you take the top out or cut the weight out of a natural crotch you create a much stronger point to rig from. The more weight you take out of a tree the safer and more structurally sound it becomes to rig from as you are bringing it down. I preferably will not break out a block and rig from the spar until I begin to bring the main stem down. I am always looking for a natural crotch to lower the brush and limb logs from for speed sake as well as the natural fork will hold more than the block and sling on a structurally sound tree.

If you have no experience at this it would be preferable to have someone on hand who is so they can keep an eye on you and offer advice. If not, take it in small pieces and think it through before you make every cut. Large removals and technical rigging is like a chess game, you have to think three moves ahead. It becomes easier as you learn how certain species of wood reacts when you make cuts as well as knowing the proper cuts to make. You got to think if I make this cut A, B and C is going to happen. Am I cutting out a particular limb I am going to have to rig from later on in the operation? Have I untied from the piece of wood I am about to cut? Am I sure my rigging line is not going to cross my climbing line and melt through. There is so much that you have to keep in mind when doing a rigging operation. There are usually no second chances to get it right. Especially if you are trying to lower big wood.

Thank you so much for replying! That is what I've been doing. I've spent a lot of time speculating, planning, reading and then starting all over. I still have to pick up the rigging gear, so I'm not ready to get up there to cut yet. I'm a thinker (software engineering by trade today), so I love the problem solving!

Here are a couple of images of the limb I'm considering. I want to tie in above from the separate tree above and perform the work below, I figure rigging from the tree the work is on. I want to pull down small chunks at a time to see how the wood reacts to the cuts I choose and the overall feel of the entire process of the tree letting go and the line taking over. I have to get it right because there is a street at the bottom of the embankment these trees are planted at the top of. I've lost a large, and I mean large branch already. With the limbs on it, it stopped tumbling pretty quickly and avoided disaster, but I know from experience now what a selling point of managing these trees are.

I need to take my time, get a feel for the equipment at height and learn to trust my work, and learn from the small mistakes I allow myself room to make. I'm really excited about doing this work, but I want to do it right. Here in so cal by the way, a neighbor down the street had some illegals (I presume) just butcher the trees in their side yard.. cut everything green off of them. When I get inquiries I almost always so far have to explain that topping is against good practice for managing the tree. They're always surprised to hear that.

Here are a couple pics. I just shot them and they're a little dark, but you can see the bark I'm referring to. I've roped over this stuff, and didn't cause any real damage to the rope, but I think a false crotch is the way to go for climbing at least...

Thanks again all!

 

[jefflovstrom]

Thank you so much for replying! That is what I've been doing. I've spent a lot of time speculating, planning, reading and then starting all over. I still have to pick up the rigging gear, so I'm not ready to get up there to cut yet. I'm a thinker (software engineering by trade today), so I love the problem solving!

Here are a couple of images of the limb I'm considering. I want to tie in above from the separate tree above and perform the work below, I figure rigging from the tree the work is on. I want to pull down small chunks at a time to see how the wood reacts to the cuts I choose and the overall feel of the entire process of the tree letting go and the line taking over. I have to get it right because there is a street at the bottom of the embankment these trees are planted at the top of. I've lost a large, and I mean large branch already. With the limbs on it, it stopped tumbling pretty quickly and avoided disaster, but I know from experience now what a selling point of managing these trees are.

I need to take my time, get a feel for the equipment at height and learn to trust my work, and learn from the small mistakes I allow myself room to make. I'm really excited about doing this work, but I want to do it right. Here in so cal by the way, a neighbor down the street had some illegals (I presume) just butcher the trees in their side yard.. cut everything green off of them. When I get inquiries I almost always so far have to explain that topping is against good practice for managing the tree. They're always surprised to hear that.

Here are a couple pics. I just shot them and they're a little dark, but you can see the bark I'm referring to. I've roped over this stuff, and didn't cause any real damage to the rope, but I think a false crotch is the way to go for climbing at least...

Thanks again all!

Dude, do you have me on 'ignore'? I told the species many posts before you posted a pic. Eucalyptus sideroxylon. Good luck-
Jeff

 

[tree md]

I hate to say it but if you are having questions about that tree you should get some help. I take limbs that size. Of course I have nothing in the landscape to compare to but it looks like a very simple operation. I have to be careful advising people on here because what looks so simple to me could be disastrous for someone who is inexperienced. That's not bragging, that is just the truth of the situation. The tree looks simple from my perspective but I'm not there. Sometimes it makes sence to pay someone to watch and learn what they know.

I'm a pretty good fisherman but I have never fished for Walleyes. I have considered paying the money and hiring a guide just to teach me what he knows and where and how to fish for them.

Best of luck to you.

 

[derwoodii]

Dude, do you have me on 'ignore'? I told the species many posts before you posted a pic. Eucalyptus sideroxylon. Good luck-
Jeff

Euc sids are tough critters and can be quite tricky to work. Heavy timber / volume. The wood snaps out on ya back cut as opposed to predicable longer grain timber. N the bark will is a heavy grade sand paper on hands. I am not a fan of em they are on my list of no goods.

From the picture I think I see a NQR tree structure but play with it to learn.

Consider a back up, find an experienced tree chap to help as you practice your skills.

 

[tree md]

That's another thing. I have never put saw to a Euc. For me to try to advise you would be ludicrous.

I admire your enthusiasm and wish I could find someone close to me with your zeal to work with. If I were closer and the work was within my scope I would try to work the ground for you and advise you.

Again, good luck!

 

[ropensaddle]

That's another thing. I have never put saw to a Euc. For me to try to advise you would be ludicrous.

I admire your enthusiasm and wish I could find someone close to me with your zeal to work with. If I were closer and the work was within my scope I would try to work the ground for you and advise you.

Again, good luck!

A big willow or sweet gum is prolly close! All species have the ability to be dangerous but some do have a lower modulus of rupture.

 

[tree md]

some do have a lower modulus of rupture.

The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the beat

 

[ropensaddle]

The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the beat

I knew you would like that lol

 

[CATreeTops]

Dude, do you have me on 'ignore'? I told the species many posts before you posted a pic. Eucalyptus sideroxylon. Good luck-
Jeff

No, absolutely not my man. I should have cross referenced your post to see if an image came up that looked like the tree in question. There are so many versions, I just didn't think you'd guess what I'm dealing with without a picture. Good job though! You absolutely nailed it, and thank you.

Do you have any tips on avoiding problems climbing this tree by chance? Much appreciated!

 

[CATreeTops]

Euc sids are tough critters and can be quite tricky to work. Heavy timber / volume. The wood snaps out on ya back cut as opposed to predicable longer grain timber. N the bark will is a heavy grade sand paper on hands. I am not a fan of em they are on my list of no goods.

From the picture I think I see a NQR tree structure but play with it to learn.

Consider a back up, find an experienced tree chap to help as you practice your skills.

Coming from Aussie, I'm sure you've deal with the tree often. They're nice looking when they don't look like they belong in a horror film. They grow in such odd configurations it looks like... What is an NQR tree structure? Are you saying it looks unstable? It's definitely a leaner... I snapped a pic of the base of the tree. The left side is more upright and is the one I plan to work the lower one with.

The second pic by the way is my later goal. It's the top of the left most trunk of picture one. It's got a precarious limb growth (as usual) and needs to be removed. I've had Mexican workers quote me 300 down to 150 to remove that limb. It's a ways up there. These guys are brave, not to mention cheap. But with spikes and a lanyard, and little to nothing to lose, I'm sure it's worth it. lol

 

[CATreeTops]

I hate to say it but if you are having questions about that tree you should get some help. I take limbs that size. Of course I have nothing in the landscape to compare to but it looks like a very simple operation. I have to be careful advising people on here because what looks so simple to me could be disastrous for someone who is inexperienced. That's not bragging, that is just the truth of the situation. The tree looks simple from my perspective but I'm not there. Sometimes it makes sence to pay someone to watch and learn what they know.

I'm a pretty good fisherman but I have never fished for Walleyes. I have considered paying the money and hiring a guide just to teach me what he knows and where and how to fish for them.

Best of luck to you.

It's ok. I realize people will err on the side caution when giving advice when the risk of failure is death or serious injury. It's serious work. My ambition and drive to look past that is not a sign of ignorance to the risk or consequence for failure. I am having questions as you might guess because I want to do it right and be successful. If I fail and get killed that was my choice to take the risk. If I succeed, then I'll be able to recite a quote I like for years to come. Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly.

I trust my ability to learn. I've definitely been on the ground longer than I expected. I've done a couple jobs I could handle with my pole saw, but I've realized in the meantime I have a lot to learn to be able to handle the work that I see everywhere around me. I love that every land owner or leaser has a tree problem to solve. I love the technical aspect to the job and am erring on the side respect for the work so I can do my level best to do it right. I'm sure I will make mistakes because I can't expect to have someone hold my hand every time I want to move forward, but learning is what's great about life. I'll consider seeing if I can find someone willing to mentor me. That's good advice I haven't ignored. Ok, enough of me boring people with that...