Darn you guys! Another winch build thread.

[muddstopper]

I think if I wanted to "make" a pto winch for a tractor, I would look for a old cable pulpwood loader and rob the winch off of it. they used a front truck brake drum with a sprocket mounted by the old lugs. The winch drum had a shaft that was machined to accept the brake drum and backing plate. The shafted was bored to accept a swivel type fitting for the brake fluid to run thru to the standard wheel cyl and a old master cylinder was used to provide brake pressure. You applied pressure to make the winch turn. A band was made to wrap around the outside of the brake drum to you could lock the winch to hold or pull. I dont know if anyone can visulize what I am describing, but we used this type setup for years dragging logs up to the truck for loading and its certainly a better system than having to rely brute strenght on disengageing the winch before you screw up. We ran 200ft of 3/8 wire rope on ours and managed to break it more times than I care to count, so winch strength isnt an issue. Look for a bigstick or Kennimer brand pulp wood loader, they have all been about scraped out around my area, but there are still many out there working everyday.

 

[dave_dj1]

hey mudd, thanks for the reply. There is almost nothing that I am aware of around here for pieces or parts. I think over the last few years most of it went to the scrap yard.

 

[muddstopper]

It dont take much machine work to build one of those old pulp wood winches. Biggest thing is machining a shaft that will accept the hub bearing on one end and the winch drum on the other. You do have to drill a hole length ways thru the shaft, but just far enough to attach a swivel fitting to the end of the shaft and come out behind the brake drum so you can run a brake line from the master cylinder to the brake drum wheel cylinder. Bolt a sprocket to the lug bolts, add a couple of pillowblock bearings and mount it on a 3pt hitch setup.

 

[DanTheCanadian]

There isn't really any fear of the winch becoming to tight to unlock because you shouldn't be winching in the locked or engaged position. Locking is ONLY for when pulling with the cable, never for winching.

Every factory built tractor winch that I have used has a big warning label saying this. Also the manual restates this multiple times. It also says that winching should be done from the tractor seat.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of not being on the tractor and if I have an easy pull I'll flip the lock after the logs have started. Its the interesting tricky bits where I adhere to rules.

 

[muddstopper]

Not to disagree Dan, but every tractor winch does not work without the locking dogs being engaged. Sure there is a lock to keep the winch from free wheeling, but that is for pulling with the tractor once the log is winched up. The winch dogs lock the gear box to the winch drum to actually make the winch work and it is these locks that are subject to get in such a bind that its almost impossible to disengage the winch when you really want/need to disengage. I have seen tractors that had been backed up to small trees to keep the tractor in place to winch a heavy tree. The winch becomes bound so that it couldnt be disengaged and actually winch the tractor upon the tree to the point that the tree would act like a launching pad and flip the tractor onto its top, and then because the tractor engine was still running, actually winch the tractor to the tree sliding it on its top. If you would like to buy that old winch, I am pretty sure my uncle would sale it to you. He got it from dad because dad almost got killed with it and decided he didnt want it any more, and after my Uncle used it for a little while, he came to the same conclussion, unsafe at any level.

 

[DanTheCanadian]

Feel free to disagree, progress is never made by following the leader. I personally havent seen a winch that locked in, only the clutch driven models.

When you pull the engage lever a pressure plate is pushed into a clutch and then into the winch drum. That design allows a degree of wiggle room

 

[muddstopper]

I havent seen a newer tractor winch, just havent had the need for or wanted one. With that said, the winch I was referring to was probably 50 years old and that was over 30 years ago, so i am sure there have been many improvements made since that winch was first built. I also know that they made similar new winchs like the one we had in the 70's and 80's so I am sure there are still some around. My point is you said that all the winches you have seen didnt use a lock to winch, but there are still plenty of winchs out there that do indeed lock to engage and dont use the clutch setup that you are referring to. The winch I suggested building uses a brake master cyl to provide hydraulic pressure to engage the winch drum and a brake band to lock the spool in place. A much safer design than the old winch we used when I was a kid, and sounds like it works similar to the winch type you are describing

 

[DanTheCanadian]

Really? Huh I'd love to see one. If I understand you correctly the winch would be 80 years old? That may be why I've never seen one.

Regardless, my experience with the new winch is that if you're carful they are great machines.

 

[whitepine2]

I havent seen a newer tractor winch, just havent had the need for or wanted one. With that said, the winch I was referring to was probably 50 years old and that was over 30 years ago, so i am sure there have been many improvements made since that winch was first built. I also know that they made similar new winchs like the one we had in the 70's and 80's so I am sure there are still some around. My point is you said that all the winches you have seen didnt use a lock to winch, but there are still plenty of winchs out there that do indeed lock to engage and dont use the clutch setup that you are referring to. The winch I suggested building uses a brake master cyl to provide hydraulic pressure to engage the winch drum and a brake band to lock the spool in place. A much safer design than the old winch we used when I was a kid, and sounds like it works similar to the winch type you are describing

Kinda seems like a jager or hathway friction winch,former had band to hold and slow down load the latter worked on fishing boats much the same way only on a much bigger scale,both had dogs to hold fast their load.We used a jager on a boom truck to haul logs until one day we parted the truck,pulled it into two parts.LOL. What made it nice is the fact it was made on skids with it's own power unit and could be skidded into the woods,pulled a D-4 out of swamp,chained it to a tree and the business end to dozer and pulled out D-4 was down over hood only thing that saved it was log chained to draw bar.
The good old days

 

[muddstopper]

Only place I have ever seen a winch like the one I suggested building was on those old cable log trucks. BigStick was the major brand, followed up by Kennimer. We had both brands at different times. The bigstick loaders used 2 hyd cyl and cables to turn the boom. The Kennimer used a hyd motor and big sprockets to turn the boom. The winchs where powered by the truck pto's. What I really liked about the winches was that you could control line speed simply by the amount of pressure you applied to the lever on the master cyl. The winch used standard truck hubs and brake shoes to engage the winch spool. The hubs had the sprocket mounted by the lug bolts and could continuously turn while the backing plate was mounted to the shaft that turned the cable spool. When you worked the master cyl, the brake shoes would lock to the brake drum and turn the shaft. Let off the lever and the brakes shoes released, just like if still mounted to a truck axle. The brake band could be adjusted to apply slight pressure to prevent the cable spool from free wheeling. The winches where a very simple design and could be built or repaired out of junkyard parts.

 

[rwoods]

Muddstopper, maybe it is just the terminology you use but I am having a hard time picturing how the winch you describe would work as the backing plate is mounted to the axle housing. The old pulp wood winches I remember from my childhood used an old axle mounted at the top of the log rack. There was a long roller chain from the truck's pto to a sprocket mounted on the ubolt yoke of the differental. The axle had brake drums on both end I believe (for sure had one on the passenger side). The driver side had a cable drum mounted on the axle shaft (IIRC a section of the housing was removed to expose the shaft and allow the attachment of the cable drum to the shaft. The cable was thread through a small manually rotated boom. To operate it I believe the cable was hand pulled to the logs, then the pto was engaged with the passenger side brake disengaged and the driver/cable side engaged. To reel in the load the passenger brake was engaged and the driver/cable side disengaged. I was just a kid then so I may be all wrong here.

Ron

 

[dave_dj1]

Ron, I think you are on the right track. My understanding is like you describe except when you want to engage the cable reel you apply the brake, making the power go to the other side of the axle. That is the design I am going for. I'm hoping the chevy center section I bought will work instead of a full axle. I don't plan on pulling any full length trees, just some tops and an occasional log from a friends property he had logged as most of the easy to get to stuff is gone. I know everyone says to not use the 1/4" wire rope that I have but I am going to try it since I have it. I can always upgrade it later. I used about a 100' piece last spring as sort of a yarder, I had a snatch block chained about 12' up in a tree with the cable going down to the logs, I pulled them at a 90 deg. angle with my truck down the road. It worked great.
Keep the info and ideas coming.
Thanks,
Dave

 

[czar800]

It will work, This is mine pulling some firewood. Sorry sush a bad video, look at the very end I put my 026 with 18" bar on top of the log.

 

[muddstopper]

Ron, I think you are thinking truck axle housing and using the axle to turn the cable spool. That is not what I am describing. The winch I am talking about uses the front hub brake drum assembly. The front axle is replaced with a shaft machined to accept the front hub and long enough to put a cable spool on the other end. The Hub and brake drum are mounted on one end of the shaft and the cable spool mounted on the other end. The shaft is supported using two pillow block bearings. The backing plate for the brake is welded to the shaft and the brake drum, with sprocket, turns freely. The shaft is center drilled on the end to a point just behind the backing plate, then cross drilled to accept a brake line that goes to the wheel cylinder on the backing plate. A swivel fitting is attached to the end of the shaft to accept a brake line coming from the brake master cylinder. I think you would find this type set up works very well, we used to winch up 4ft dia, 60ft long trees to the truck using one of these winches, so it is a very strong winch. It would also be lighter in weight than using a truck axle housing. The winchs on our trucks had spools big enough to accept 200ft of 3/8 cable.

 

[DanTheCanadian]

So the drum is turning and applying the brake engages the shaft. I think I understand the idea. I might make one just because it sounds interesting.

 

[muddstopper]

So the drum is turning and applying the brake engages the shaft. I think I understand the idea. I might make one just because it sounds interesting.

Now you got it.! Pretty easy to make if you have a lathe. Making the shaft is the only real machine work needed. I would suggest to use a rear brake drum and backing plate to put on the front hub. Only reason for this is because the rear brake shoes are usually wider than the brakes on the front. It will give you a little more holding power.

 

[czar800]

G

 

[rwoods]

Muddstoppet, I understand now. I have never seen one like you describe. The ones I grew up around were rear axles with differentials. The only variation I remember is some mounted the axle at the bottom of the rack and some were mounted at the top. Other than the machining the type you described seems very simple and probably much stronger and safer than those using a differental.

Ron.


Ps I assume that the shaft and drum are parallel with the drivetrain where the one I describe they are perpendicular .

 

[muddstopper]

Yes the winch was mounted parallel with the drive train. The cable ran up thru the center of the boom and out to the end on rollers. On a 3pt setup, as long as the cable ran up over the top of the frame, parallel mounting shouldnt pose a problem, but if you wished to keep the winch cable low and run straight out the back, then I guess you could add a right angle drive and run the winch sideways. A old bushhog gear box would make a great right angle drive for this application.