Deep Root Fert.

[Husky288XP]

What is the average psi range for deep root fertilizing?

And, what type of spray rig do you guys prefer?

I was thinking about starting a small PHC program for a select few of my clients. I want to base more of my PHC on fertilizing, but I will still spray for insects and fungi.

 

[seanlarkin]

Husky,

Tom Duffy is our fertilizer expert, and he deals with deep root fertilizing and spray rigs quite a bit. He will be able to help you with any questions you have. You can call him at 1-800-525-8873 ext 232, or email him at [email protected]

-Sean

 

[treeman45246]

For deep root, 150 psi should be sufficient, although more may help in tough soils. If you're looking for multiple applications on one visit, I would set up a larger fresh water tank (200-600 gallons) with multiple (2 or 3) small tanks of 25 gallons to mix pesticide in. I've seen a setup with 3 25 gallon tanks, with a 200 gallon tank to supply fresh water to mix and another 200 gallon tank to run fertilization from. Wouldn't know how it was all set up, but it was a great machine.

 

[Husky288XP]

When I worked for a small tree ser. in our area, they had a dual tank john bean. The one tank was 400 gal. and the other was a 600 gal. tank. The setup I am thinking of is a 200 gal. skid mount on a flat bed one ton pick-up.

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Here is a pic of mine. It also comes as a truck mounted unit.

Our PSI (175-225) rate is higher then most, due to heavy clay based soils.

i haven't seen one of these rigs in the uk is it a bowser ?? spraying setup /rig ? or what ? i want to buy a deep root feed lance from sherrill but i don't realy know what type of rig i need for it

 

[Ax-man]

That is a nice looking rig, rborist 1, I like those chrome wheels, nice touch. My rig is almost identical only not as sharp looking, little smaller tank on mine and probaly a smaller pump.

I run about 125-150 which is amble in our area for fert. The one thing you have to watch for running higher psi's is blowing the root hairs right off the main roots, we don't have what I would call heavy, heavy clay soils here, but some guys have said it is possible to heave soil plates up and shear roots with too pressure.

I went through this same thing about 10 yrs ago deciding what type of rig to buy, alot depends on what type of fertilizer product your going to be using as to what type of rig you will need. I choose Dogget products for a number of reasons, I choose a rig with mechanical agitation, with a piston pump as opposed to jet agitators and a diaphram pump.

As far as a feed needle get the best, cheap won't last if you have dry hard ground conditions or compacted soils, rocks and gravel don't help much either. I use a four hole needle, keep an eye on the tip as you work they do unscrew get lost, they are expensive to replace and hard to find. A flow meter at the end of the hose is nice feature to have, I don't have one, if you watch your tank level as you work you can calibrate pretty good over a given area.

Hope this helps a little.

Larry

 

[Ax-man]

On my rig there is just enough room in a few spots on the frame that holds the tank down, to get some of those S hook rubber stretch straps to hold it next to the tank. I secure it in an x fashion, tight to the tank so it doesn't move one way or the other while going down the road. My reel is a hand cranker, I also secure the crank handle with one of those straps so it doesn't move. I had to learn the hard way on that one.

Larry

 

[Stumper]

WHat's the idea of deep root feeding anyway? Is it to get the water soluable fertilzer down below the roots so 100% of it can run into ground water?

Deep smeep. My definition of "deep" feeding is 10-12" below the surface. Anything more is an excerise in futility (unless getting fert into the groundwater is the goal)

 

[Ax-man]

It is easier and quicker than drilling or punching holes in the ground to put in dry fertilizer, distributes the fertilzer more uniformly underground, gets the fertilizer past the roots of turf grass, if soil moisture is an issue this is also another benefit for using the water injection method over other methods dilutes the fertilizer when it is applied and the tree gets a good watering as a bonus.

I don't how this term "deep root" came about, I think it is throwback to old aboriculture when the thinking was that tree roots were really down deep like 24" inches or more.

Larry

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I learned something interesting last year.

Fertilizers - including organics - can kill good microorganisms in soil.

Those fertilizers - almost all - produce salts which can kill profitable microorganisms.

This was from a Phd soil biologist that was at Oregon State University but now has a company or corporation calle the Soil Food Web or something very similar.

Also, the good bacteria and fungi, when present, occupy space and prevent soil compaction. When fertilizer salts kill those microorganisms, they "weather away" and a result can be increased soil compaction because the soil has less resistance due to the vacant pores.

What I realized is that fertilizer must have an absolute need to be applied.

In our area, more damage happens to fertilized trees many times than to those which receive no fertilizing. Fertilizing makes bigger leaves and longer branches. One catches more precipitation wieght and the other provides more leverage for breakage.

I have been watching this for 15 years in this area.

Japanese maples especially, loose natural form with fertilizers.

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

keep an eye on the tip as you work they do unscrew get lost, they are expensive to replace and hard to find.

Larry

buy a cheap metal detector........axe -man how much would a rig like this cost??

 

[Stumper]

Agreed Mike, 12 inches is the deepest I put fertilizer. It isn't where I put most of the fertilizer.

 

[Ax-man]

Rolla,

Just off the top of my head without looking at any trade mags, I would say a new skid mounted tree sprayer / fertilizer rig brand new would in the neighborhood of $3000 to $ 5000 ( U.S.$ ) depending on the options you an need on it like tank size, engine, pump size and brand, high pressure hose and length you would need and type of reel.

I don't have that much tied up in mine, I bought mine used from a guy who had a little ornamental apple biz. Mine is just a 100 gal unit with the paddles for agitation, about 100 ft. of HP hose and piston pump. I paid about $600 for it 10 years ago, but I had to overhaul the engine, repair the pump and get a heavy duty feed needle, plus some of the valviing and get a trailor. I have about $1600 to $ 2000 tied up in mine, not counting the cost for fertilizers.

I couldn't justify spending big bucks on a PHC venture in our area because I wasn't sure how it would turn out, it is kind of a hard thing to sell in our area. There is not a big market for used sprayers either if you want to get out of it. I tried to sell mine 2 yrs. ago, no takers to speak of, had one guy call asking if he could spray paint with it.

My rig is OK for doing small to medium sized trees, but for large mature trees a bigger unit is better to save a trip back for water or have a source for water on the job which is not always an option.

Mike,

I go for a depth of about 6" to 9", I feel this is about right to bypass most turf grass roots , but still benefit the tree. Water doesn't perc through a soil that fast unless it is overly saturated to the point of runoff or the soil is extremely sandy. I think fertilizer will pretty much stay put unless there is just too much water in the soil to move it, if this is the case then it would be best to just wait for better conditions. If were going to do some finger pointing on this groundwater contamination issue, let's point it at the turf people like Scotts, Chem- Lawn or Tru-Green they are the ones who give the image that a lush green overfertilized lawn is some kind of status symbol, which just translates into over applications of quick release nitrogen, and the corn growers also are to blame to a lesser degree.

Larry

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Good point Mike Maas...

I almost always apply in the top few inches - usually the surface to eliminate waste.

Still, I fertilize trees infrequently. I run into only about 6 trees in an entire year that really need any. And I start with a minor amount - not a full application.

Most tree problems are not due to lack of nutrients. Some times it's the pH affecting availability.

Most often it's poor soil or surface compaction.

 

[Stumper]

PH is the big issue here. We have primarily clay soils with lots of alkilinity. While I do apply some fertilizer, Most of my applications are soil acidifiers, vertical mulching and mycorhizal treatments.

 

[jimmyq]

something I found a couple years back. courtesy of the morton arboretum.

 

[alanarbor]

You could always get a brewer and go full organic with humates and compost teas. As far as leaching, that's a reason to always use a fertilizer with 50% water insoluble nitrogen. I also find that about half of the reccomended rate is more than sufficient. That would be 2.5-5lbs/100 gals of the dogget or other powder blue base N fertilizer. The one caveat to using sulphur to lower Ph is the fact that sulfur is a fungicide, doing a lot of harm to beneficial soil fungi, often making the situation worse. I prefer to aerate, and introduce beneficial fungi via compost tea. The right fungi and bacteria will eventually change the soil Ph to fit the plant's needs.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Deep smeep. My definition of "deep" feeding is 10-12" below the surface. Anything more is an excerise in futility (unless getting fert into the groundwater is the goal)

IMO 8 inches is optimal, because any deeper and the mobility of the product will bring move it deeper. 10-12 and your under most of the absorbative roots.

Ok, Mike said that too.

There is enough lit. published showing that just NPK applications are not good for trees. There is no net increase in photosynthates, increases in pests, reductions of mycorhizea...

Should i climb up on the seaweed emultsion soapboax againn?

Also I found the JoA paper on sucrose drench of new transplants to be very interesting.

 

[ray benson]

something I found a couple years back. courtesy of the morton arboretum.

Morton Arboretum, Lisle Illinois. Went there a couple years ago. Very impressive.Spent the day walking around part of the grounds checking out stand after stand of trees.Also took a tram ride around the grounds with a tour guide for an explanation of what they have and what they have accomplished.Hope to go back this year.
Ray