Deutz-Allis Compact Tractor

[Big Red Oaks 4 me]

I think I posted about this before, but my neighbor is moving, and is going to sell me a 18hp diesel D-A compact tractor with a front-end bucket and a Deutz-Allis 60" finishing mower for 750.00. Tractor has 2000 hours, and the temp light comes on when it's hot outside, and the tractor is under a heavy load. Oil pressure light stays on all the time, but engine sounds good. He says it never boils over, but temp light does indicate that it's too warm. The finishing mower looks good, but will need new blades. I have a couple other 3-point hook-up tractors to run the mower, as mine is rusted-out pretty bad. Should I run or buy? thanks for any input.

 

[Conquistador3]

I think I wrote before that tractor is a rebadged Hinomoto (AKA Toyosha), which was sold in the 80's and 90's under a variety of brands including Massey-Ferguson and Allis-Chalmers. I think the original Hinomoto model was the C174.

The two and three cylinder engines built by Hinomoto were... rubbish, really. The cylinder head is a well known weak point on them and most likely the excessive temperature you are seeing is the first symptom of a big failure in the near future. Cracked and warped heads are common, and blown head gaskets even more so. Hinomoto has long since disappeared and unless you can source a low hours engine (ah!) it makes zero sense fixing that tractor.
I've heard some other three cylinder Japanese diesel engines can be used with a bit of work, but I've never seen a re-engined Hinomoto for myself, let alone worked on such a conversion: it's probably either a big job, requiring a lot of labor, or just an interesting theoretical exercise.

Of course if you really need the mower and think it's a good price compared to what's available locally you may keep the mower for yourself and break up the Hinomoto for spares: there's always somebody looking for them around. I was rather surprised a while back by the number of people still looking for Hinomoto spares.

 

[Big Red Oaks 4 me]

I think I wrote before that tractor is a rebadged Hinomoto (AKA Toyosha), which was sold in the 80's and 90's under a variety of brands including Massey-Ferguson and Allis-Chalmers. I think the original Hinomoto model was the C174.

The two and three cylinder engines built by Hinomoto were... rubbish, really. The cylinder head is a well known weak point on them and most likely the excessive temperature you are seeing is the first symptom of a big failure in the near future. Cracked and warped heads are common, and blown head gaskets even more so. Hinomoto has long since disappeared and unless you can source a low hours engine (ah!) it makes zero sense fixing that tractor.
I've heard some other three cylinder Japanese diesel engines can be used with a bit of work, but I've never seen a re-engined Hinomoto for myself, let alone worked on such a conversion: it's probably either a big job, requiring a lot of labor, or just an interesting theoretical exercise.

Of course if you really need the mower and think it's a good price compared to what's available locally you may keep the mower for yourself and break up the Hinomoto for spares: there's always somebody looking for them around. I was rather surprised a while back by the number of people still looking for Hinomoto spares.

Thanks! Wife doesn't want me to get it, as she thinks it will be problems. I wouldn't want to hear "I told you so" in the future, so I may have to Back-out, even though I told him I would get it. I hate to be that way, but....Thanks for the reply!

 

[Big Red Oaks 4 me]

On second thought, I may just do as you suggested and take the mower off, put it out by the road(while it's still running) and sell it, keeping the mower.

 

[Conquistador3]

On second thought, I may just do as you suggested and take the mower off, put it out by the road(while it's still running) and sell it, keeping the mower.

Personally I would never sell any piece of equipment I know won't last long, unless as a spare hulk. Even if you tell people "the engine is on its last legs" or "the transmission needs a rebuild, badly", the chances of dealing with somebody who'll act like you scammed him at a later date are simply too high.
If I had the time, space and leisure (and be twenty years younger: working in a cold barn is for young people) I would strip that thing down and list everything in acceptable shape for sale, then have the hulk itself hauled away by my local friendly scrap merchant. The transmission alone is probably worth ¾ the price of the tractor, and if the crankshaft is still sound it can sell for decent money.

 

[bowtechmadman]

What would you be using the tractor for? You can't buy much for 750.00 and if mower is in good shape not sure how you can go wrong. Run it till it drops then scrap you would have to be nearly 400 worth of scrap metal and the mower still.

 

[Marshy]

I have a Deutz-Allis 5230, 31hp 4x4 compact tractor with FEL and love it. It has almost 1700 hours and was well cared for. It has a 1.5L 3 cylinder Hinomoto engine and is the largest in this category.

The 5215 model was rated for 18hp and has a 1.0L three cylinder. I am unaware of any compatible parts but Hinomoto made a 1.0, 1.4, and 1.5 liter engine that was used across three series of compact tractors. I do know parts can still be found out in the mid west for the front axle on the 4x4 tractors. It would not surprise me if engine parts like gaskets, bearings and rebuild kits are harder to find though. A major part like a head or a crankshaft might be limited to used.

The Hinomoto C174 and Allis Chalmers 5015 is the same tractor as the D-A 5215. If you ever considered doing an engine swap then the Massey 1020 used a 1.1L Toyosha... no idea how compatible it is. Simplicity also used this Hinomoto engine series.

In my opinion, I would consider buying it if it doesnt show signs of abuse. I would test the coolant for combustion byproducts from a failed head gasket or cracked head. I would also consider inspecting the water pump impellar and replace the radiator cap. Make sure the radiator is clean, maybe do a coolant flush to descale it. Make sure you inspect the engine oil for coolant.

 

[Big Red Oaks 4 me]

I have a Deutz-Allis 5230, 31hp 4x4 compact tractor with FEL and love it. It has almost 1700 hours and was well cared for. It has a 1.5L 3 cylinder Hinomoto engine and is the largest in this category.

The 5215 model was rated for 18hp and has a 1.0L three cylinder. I am unaware of any compatible parts but Hinomoto made a 1.0, 1.4, and 1.5 liter engine that was used across three series of compact tractors. I do know parts can still be found out in the mid west for the front axle on the 4x4 tractors. It would not surprise me if engine parts like gaskets, bearings and rebuild kits are harder to find though. A major part like a head or a crankshaft might be limited to used.

The Hinomoto C174 and Allis Chalmers 5015 is the same tractor as the D-A 5215. If you ever considered doing an engine swap then the Massey 1020 used a 1.1L Toyosha... no idea how compatible it is. Simplicity also used this Hinomoto engine series.

In my opinion, I would consider buying it if it doesnt show signs of abuse. I would test the coolant for combustion byproducts from a failed head gasket or cracked head. I would also consider inspecting the water pump impellar and replace the radiator cap. Make sure the radiator is clean, maybe do a coolant flush to descale it. Make sure you inspect the engine oil for coolant.

I have a Massey Ferguson TO 35 and a Massey Ferguson TO 20. My 5' bushhog is rusting through in many places on the top, but the gearbox is still good. I am still using it, but since I rarely cut "brush", I think the 60" finishing mower will be good for me. The only thing about the DA 5215 that worries me is the fact that it has over-heated on many instances, but the owner says it never boiled-over. Heck, I'm pretty sure that I'm gonna buy it for one reason or another. It does have a front bucket that works. It has 2000 hours on it, and at least it HAS been a good one...LOL

 

[Big Red Oaks 4 me]

Personally I would never sell any piece of equipment I know won't last long, unless as a spare hulk. Even if you tell people "the engine is on its last legs" or "the transmission needs a rebuild, badly", the chances of dealing with somebody who'll act like you scammed him at a later date are simply too high.
If I had the time, space and leisure (and be twenty years younger: working in a cold barn is for young people) I would strip that thing down and list everything in acceptable shape for sale, then have the hulk itself hauled away by my local friendly scrap merchant. The transmission alone is probably worth ¾ the price of the tractor, and if the crankshaft is still sound it can sell for decent money.

I would never miss-represent anything for sale, as I wouldn't want anybody to do that to me. I will get it, use it, do any maintenance that I am capable of doing, and run it until it drops. Then it will most likely become scrap metal. I just don't have the patience to tear everything down. I do have the time, though, as I'm retired. Thanks for your suggestions, though. I do appreciate them very much!

 

[bowtechmadman]

I have an old Ford 60" finishing mower that for the past 30 yrs has spent more time as a poor brush hog than as a finish mower. I don't get too crazy just mowing down tall grass/weeds with it, and it works just fine, blades are kept sharp that helps.

 

[Conquistador3]

I would never miss-represent anything for sale, as I wouldn't want anybody to do that to me. I will get it, use it, do any maintenance that I am capable of doing, and run it until it drops. Then it will most likely become scrap metal. I just don't have the patience to tear everything down. I do have the time, though, as I'm retired. Thanks for your suggestions, though. I do appreciate them very much!

You can be the most standup and honest seller in the world, I do not doubt that for an instant. But there are a whole lot of scoundrels out there: if you want to ruin your day check the topics in the chainsaw sections about the so called "eBay Rent-a-Chainsaw Service".
That's why solicitors are always so busy and why a written sales contract can be a lifesaver.

 

[Big Red Oaks 4 me]

I got my tractor yesterday, with a couple of surprises. I bought a John Deere Efco 71 from my neighbor a few weeks ago, so he didn't have a saw to cut-up a tree that fell over his property line. I had agreed to pay him 750.00 for the DA tractor and finishing mower a while back. He told me that if I cut up that tree and haul it to his brushpile, he would knock-off 100.00 on the tractor. I did, and he brought me the tractor. I was looking for an oil leak on it, and discovered that it is a 4wd tractor, which he never told me, so that's a good thing. The front tires didn't look like 4wd tires. I have a steady drip oil leak coming off the oil drain plug, and the guy thought it needed a washer on the plug. It's running down the right side of the oil pan(the hardest side to see) and dripping off. I don't know whether the pan has a crack in it or what... I plan on taking it to a diesel mechanic and getting him to go over it and fix the things that have been neglected. I'll post pics tomorrow. I did use it to scoop-up some debris around my wood splitter today. It has power steering, too.

 

[Conquistador3]

You are not going to like this, but if diesel repair rates in your area are anything close to the small engine repair rates people post in the chainsaw section, even a simple leak (new gasket/sealant needed) is going to be pricey business...

 

[bowtechmadman]

So for 650.00 bucks you got a running diesel, 4wd w/ power steering tractor with a 3pt attached finish mower. I'm sorry but you SUCK!! You would be hard pressed to find the finish mower for that price.

 

[Big Red Oaks 4 me]

Here it is.

 

[Big Red Oaks 4 me]

The guy had 2 turf wheel and tires for it, also. I don't think he ever used those.

 

[Big Red Oaks 4 me]

You are not going to like this, but if diesel repair rates in your area are anything close to the small engine repair rates people post in the chainsaw section, even a simple leak (new gasket/sealant needed) is going to be pricey business...

I have a friend who owns a tractor repair shop at his home. He's retired National Guard diesel mechanic, and I think he will treat me ok, but I'll have to get somebody to haul it to him and bring it back. That's usually expensive, too. I'm hoping to get by with 500.00 or less, but we'll see.

 

[bowtechmadman]

Where are you located? Want to double your money?

 

[Topbuilder]

I think I wrote before that tractor is a rebadged Hinomoto (AKA Toyosha), which was sold in the 80's and 90's under a variety of brands including Massey-Ferguson and Allis-Chalmers. I think the original Hinomoto model was the C174.

The two and three cylinder engines built by Hinomoto were... rubbish, really. The cylinder head is a well known weak point on them and most likely the excessive temperature you are seeing is the first symptom of a big failure in the near future. Cracked and warped heads are common, and blown head gaskets even more so. Hinomoto has long since disappeared and unless you can source a low hours engine (ah!) it makes zero sense fixing that tractor.
I've heard some other three cylinder Japanese diesel engines can be used with a bit of work, but I've never seen a re-engined Hinomoto for myself, let alone worked on such a conversion: it's probably either a big job, requiring a lot of labor, or just an interesting theoretical exercise.

Of course if you really need the mower and think it's a good price compared to what's available locally you may keep the mower for yourself and break up the Hinomoto for spares: there's always somebody looking for them around. I was rather surprised a while back by the number of people still looking for Hinomoto spares.

Well, he never said what model he was looking at. Deutz was not involved with Allis until the mid 80's as I remember. They had several air cooled models. The C174 was from '80 to 85. I never saw one. Not sure they were ever sold in the US? The 2WD Hinomotos prior to that, E230, E-280 were great tractors. The Allis Chalmers, 5020 & 5030 and Massey's that followed (210,220) were also great. I was around hundreds of them. I serviced a 5020 that picked up balls at a driving range with over 5,000 hours on the original engine. I have owned and run a E-280 for the last 22 years. A dollar to a doughnut the overheating is the radiator. Either needs to be blown out, or rodded out. Parts are an issue. Even more of an issue if it is a gray market tractor. As far as the engines being rubbish on the US marketed Toyosha's ? Rubbish.