Dieing of old age?

[beastmaster]

I was visiting a friend at work, He's helping do a major remodel of an up scale home in Orange Co. Always on the lookout for potential jobs I asked about the trees on the property. The owner said he already had an Arborist come out and evaluate the trees. Curious what this high dollar Arborist had to say, I of course asked.
Trees of several different species have died and or are in decline. The Arborist said it was just old age.
I know trees do get old and decline, but come on. The alders are around 10 years old. They have cankers, are bleeding from the bark. There is whole branches that have died off on them. I also found exit holes from borers. On some the bark is peeling off in spots.
I am thinking Phytophthora. I have a lady PHd from UCR coming out next week to inspect them and run some test. Phytophthora siskiyouensis is a new disease in this area of the country, but in this area where the trees are is ground zero and a quarantine area.
A sycamore in the front yard has white mold on the leaves. The home owner paid for the arborist to come out and drill and fill around the drip line to cure it of the mold. I don't know if it was for fertilizer, or compaction, either way I don't see it doing much good other then lining this Arborist's pockets.
The tree is in a planter surrounded by turf, and of course, sprinklers. At dusk they come on, and you can see mist 20 ft up in the air around the tree.
Though I disagree with what this guy is diagnosising and recomemending, I haven't voiced my opinions of what I think of this Arborist to the home owner. Everyone has to make a living. Hell what do I know anyway.
I have been doing a little consulting here and there, and I am just happy if some one wants my opinion and recommendations at this point, but still I take it serous. I have been charging 60.00 for a consultation, more it I do a soil test. This guy charge 6 X that and sold the treatments.
I know I sell my self short sometimes, because I am just a lowly tree trimmer, and a little intimidated by fancy trucks and advertising, but I read and study everyday. And when I see a shame(or what I think is a shame)who is well paid, and respected, taking advantage of people and not even knowing what he's talking about, well it makes me rethink things some.
What are the qualifications to be able to go out and advertise your self as a consultant.

 

[ch woodchuck]

Just found your post..I hear ya!Been at this trade quite a few yrs.Been working on a clients mont. pine for the past 15 yrs.18 months ago I noticed that bark beetles(turps/red) were wreaking havoc on the tree.''Generally'' Healthy trees can fend off these attacks.I notified the client of the problem..She said she had a friend who recommended a consulting arborist and they would deal with the problem...OK.......The recommendation was summer irrigation and a spring fall spray program.6 months later two large spars died,and had to be removed,which we did.Being a bit suspicious of the recommendation,I mucked around the root flare which had succulents growing around the base covering the flare.Found a large rot pocket!!,and soggy soil!I was pissed off!Told the client about the issue,Let her deal with it.
This is not to say all certified arborist are this flakey,but I do see enough of these issues which makes me want to double check.I do believe in order to advertise as a consulting arborist,(legally)a certification is necessary.I'm down to a handfull of exceptionally great,and high end clients(retired..sort of...)and between my partner and myself and our resources we figure stuff out muy pronto.

 

[Soilarch]

I don't mean to hijack this thread. However, as a young up and coming "tree" person where do I start on learning this stuff? There's the university down the road with an established and respected forestry program. (I already have one degree...a lot of good it's done me:bang ISA's website has a bunch of articles but most of it seems like random shots in the dark to guy like me with no foundational knowledge. There's Shigo's work. Is his "New Tree Biology" "Tree Anatomy" or "Modern Arboriculture" good purchases to start with or are there better courses of action?

Trying to not be "that guy" several years down the road. :help:

 

[sgreanbeans]

I think it has to do with the individual. There are those who do this with only their pocket in mind. These types will tell you whatever they can to get you to spend money. They sell treatments on fear, instead of lab test. Condemn trees, just so they can have a job to do. I talk myself out of work all the time. They will have several guys come out, all will same something different with one thing in common, take out the tree. I show, nothing wrong that a few tweaks wont cure, save the tree too prune another day. Hackers are bad, but con artist Arbs are worse, they do more damage to the trade than anybody. Here, if they don't know what is going on, it's Anthracnose. "The tree is a goner, its gotta go"

Your not a lowly tree trimmer Beasty, just a Arb without the cert. You walk the walk, talk the talk, just don't have that little piece of paper, so go get it already! The CA program is loosing it value, way too many people stray off course once they get it, barley pass the test in the first place and now they are out selling consultations, on the little knowledge they gained from the test book. They make no effort in learning more, they got the paper and that's all they are going to do. I, like u, read as much as I can, the more I read, the more I realize,that there is much more to learn and in the big picture, I know very little. When I don't know what is going on with a tree, I tell them, but also tell them I know how I can get the answers.

@ new kid- those books would be great, but not the greatest starting point tho. Basic Arboriculture from the ISA would be perfect and start from there. There is alot of good stuff out there. The ISA book store has most Arb books you would ever need.

 

[beastmaster]

Thanks guys for the reply's. I had my cert. from the ISA. I didn't bother with it after 3 years. I do know just because you are certified from ISA, that your all of a suddenly a consultant. Unfortunitly that's what the general public is lead to believe. This allows anyone who can pass a simple test, the ability to start acting like an expert.
I wish the ISA would make the test more difficult and complex, with essays. More like their board certified master arborist cert.
I am more impressed with school degrees, but then again you have people who knows books, but little if any real field experience. I am taking classes at a local Jr. College, but even that just scratches the surface of each subject. In school I ace most my tree classes easily.(not so much math and english)ha
I think desire to know and learn is key. I have tons of books, and now that I've discovered the internet a few years ago there is a treasure trove of information available for the taking
I sent pictures of those trees(alders)dying of old age to a lady who's whole life seems to be studying Phytophthora at UCR at her request. She's very excited and is trying to find time to come look at and take samples of these trees.
Diagnosis of tree diseases and problems can be difficult and complex sometimes, and often takes some detective work to figure out. Plus there isn't much you can do to cure most chronic tree diseases anyway, yet it doesn't stop snake oil salesmen from selling sprays, injections, and whatnot to treat these problems. More so then not it's cultural practice that a good tree care provider should of pointed out early on to the home owners if they knew what they were talking about that caused the problem.
The whole time I was Certified the place I worked wouldn't allow me to tell a customer I was certified or even discuss or mention anything tree related.
I often feel like I am crying out in the wilderness, but no one can hear me. Thanks for the feed backs.

 

[Panama]

Very similar situation to myself Beast. It was wearing me out trying to give the homeowners the straight truth without just outright telling them that what the other "Certified Arborists" told them was false, if not intentionally misleading. I decided I did not want to be associated with them anymore. I also felt the exam was easy and found it surprising how the guys that barely passed (some after numerous attempts) were suddenly considering themselves an expert at tree diagnosis. I have no problem attempting to diagnose a declining tree, but also have no problem admitting when I can find no CONCRETE reason for the decline, and referring them to our local BCMA/consulting/forensic arborist for a professional diagnosis. Quite often it is obvious the previous "Certified Arborists" had no clue, so they guessed at a diagnosis rather than admit they could not figure it out, and sold it to the homeowner. It's the lack of professional integrity, so easily cast aside to make a buck, which diminishes the certification. And no, I do not know how to fix it, sorry.

 

[FanOFatherNash]

Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure there is one less rascal in the world

 

[beastmaster]

I had diagnosed some liquidambers with xyella fastidiosa,. They had all the symptoms to a tee. I would of bet the farm that was what what they had. So I had a researcher from UCR come out and they agreed it looked like xyella and took samples. Two week later they email me and say its not xyella. Sense this was a study of xyella, they didn't care what else it could of been. The tree has sense died. But another time a bunch of fruit trees were in serious decline. Another Arborist said they were just old trees.(this must be a more common diagnosis then I thought.) I trimmed them and while working around them I noticed none of them had any root flare. I ask if there had been any grade changes. First he said no, then he said he did bring in some top soil and rototilled it in to the excising soil. After digging down 12 or more inches I found the root flare. He on my recommendation had all the soil around the base of the trees removed. On top of that no water was even making it down though the new layer of fill to the the root zone. It was acting like a big sponge. With a few modifications The trees have came back and are thriveing. I was just there to trim the trees. How did a consulting arb miss that?
Also how can you diagnosis some problems with out a soil or leaf test? I have never heard of an arborist sending out samples for a lab test. A soil probe to check core samples, can help solve many problems, never seen one used. Exposing and checking the roots should be a giving on some suspected problems, but I have seen beautiful big trees condemned with out so much as scratching the surface of the ground.
I am sure there are a lot of great arborist out there, who do the best they can, but I have seen more scam artist and misinform ones my self in our local areas.
You may not always know the right answer, but like sqreanbean said,"I know how to get the answers".
I have found university are more then willing to help, all you have to do is ask. They have people who spend their life studying one bug or disease. You must be humble enough to know you don't know everything though, and not be afraid to ask for help.

 

[Castenea]

Also how can you diagnosis some problems with out a soil or leaf test? I have never heard of an arborist sending out samples for a lab test. A soil probe to check core samples, can help solve many problems, never seen one used. Exposing and checking the roots should be a giving on some suspected problems, but I have seen beautiful big trees condemned with out so much as scratching the surface of the ground.

It is amazing the number of trees or shrubs I have seen where the client asks why is this tree not thriving, where I dig into the mulch and find the root flare is buried, or has girdling roots or otherwise incorrectly planted.

Extreme example, I once pulled a holly out of the ground that had been planted a year earlier, but still had the burlap on. No roots into the surrounding soil.