Dump trailer issues

[nathan4104]

I know a few guys are using dump trailers. I have a Load Trail 6x10. It has the standard 12v hydraulic double acting power pack that’s found in many trailers.
It’s going on 10 years old. When I bought it, I ended up changing the battery as it seemed to not hold a charge and drained very fast. I also changed the brake ‘break away’ module (ended up not leaving it hooked up to eliminate a source of power drain), I removed the restrictor from the base end of the cylinder to reduce any fluid restrictions (hope the line don’t break with the box up!)changed the hydraulic oil (to Kubota SUDT as that’s what’s in my tractor and I now have it rigged to use the tractor remotes or the 12v so the oil has to match).
Ive since gone through a few more batteries. If I’m lucky I get 2 or 3 dumps on a group 24 deep cycle. I ended up not using the standard truck charge wire from the 7 pin plug, as it would blow the trucks fuse for the towing. ( when it was dumping)
So I put in 4ga wires from the truck battery back to the trailers battery, connected through a solenoid and self resetting 50A CB. When dumping that CB cycles off and on as the draw is well over 50 amps.
I likely damage the battery by over amping it during the charge constantly.

However, none of this explains why a new battery will only get a few dumps. I’ve tried using a carbon pile load meter to check for amp draw and figure with comparable voltage drops (tester vs dumping) that the pump is drawing 200-250 amps. There is no rating on the stamp on the motor/pump.
Perhaps the motor is getting tired and the brushes are wore? I disassembled the hydraulic unit yesterday and cleaned everything I could and found nothing obvious. I did not take the electric motor apart. The pump feels ‘ok’, the solenoid valves all seem to click and move so oil should be flowing the right way. (The relief valve is rusty looking so I left that alone for fear of damaging it but that’s just external rust/looks and even if it was not functional it shouldn’t cause grief like this)
I hate to buy a new unit ($500) when there could be something simple I’ve overlooked.
Any thoughts and ideas welcome
Thanks

 

[rancher2]

I use the highest CCA group 31 battery's that I can find and have no problem with them staying up for many dumps. Your amp draw doesn't sound too bad. Does the pump motor sound like its dragging. I think a group 24 is a little small for what your doing. Check all you connections including your grounds.

 

[panolo]

200-250 is usually fairly normal on a 12v hydraulic like this. I think my Dalton is 245. Usually when voltage drops the amps increase. You've been this far it makes sense to pull the motor and take a look. Even with new brushes and clean windings you still run into a bad motor. I just had one out the box on a 1.5hp electric. I run a group 27 on mine and so does my buddy on his. Make sure all your grounds are clean and your wires are tight.

Edit: Looks like rancher2 beat me to it!

 

[cumminstinkerer]

I would recommend calling a place in Iowa called Agri Drain, they have a charging setup for the field tile stringer carts that is designed for charging off the vehicle but prevents over charging and over drawing the charging wiring. I cannot remember how much the little deal is but it worked great. If you are running gas mat batteries they really are not mad for that high of draw, you really want to stay with a lead acid or gel style, the gasmats are for lower draw like a power wheelchair.

 

[sb47]

I use the highest CCA group 31 battery's that I can find and have no problem with them staying up for many dumps. Your amp draw doesn't sound too bad. Does the pump motor sound like its dragging. I think a group 24 is a little small for what your doing. Check all you connections including your grounds.

I agree. Check your grounds. Bad grounding is the main issue most come across on trailers. You can use jumper cables as a temporary ground to see if it changes anything.

 

[nathan4104]

Thanks guys for the advice. I actually made up new cables (2ga) a while back also but I gave them a test on the load tester to see if they are ok and they were. The battery on the other hand failed the load test. (It passed a few days ago, barely.....)
without getting new motor parts, I’m not gonna take it apart, I’ve had ok luck with atv starters but this may be beyond my skill and tools. I can’t see how the valve manifold comes off, and it is a bit corroded at the bottom (exterior) from years of our saltyroads..
Maybe a new unit is inevitable....
Grounds all seem ok. I recleaned them but everything was in good shape.
Im pondering getting a large starting battery rather than a deep cycle. (Only ever had lead acid deep cycles in it, AC Delco) If a starting battery had the Reserve capacity to raise and lower it a few times maybe it’ll be more tolerant of a faster charge from my 4ga wire set up....
I looked into 12v-12v battery chargers a while back but they don’t come cheap. But then again, a new battery every year and fiddling a day and a 1/2 ain’t either....

 

[cumminstinkerer]

@nathan4104 here is the number for Agri Drain (800) 232-4742, I know the units we had were only like 50 bucks if that. The worked great, those stringer carts were the exact same principle as a dump trailer, never had battery issues unles someone left the main power on for days without them being hooked up to a running vehicle, they were remote control and the unit would slowly draw the batteries down.

 

[cumminstinkerer]

@nathan4104 I stand corrected, they have gone up a bit since we bought the last one, this is direct from agridrain's website.

 

[Sandhill Crane]

It is my understanding that most batteries, I guess lead/acid batteries, should not be discharged more than 50% of rated capacity. More than that damages the batteries in some fashion.

 

[Del_]

Does the shaft of the motor turn freely?

I've had a magnet come loose and rub the armature causing high current draw. Was able to get some loctite glue made for the purpose.

 

[cookies]

something is not right if your blowing the trucks fuses, the truck is the charger but 0 pump electrical load should be applied to the truck when the pump is operating.

 

[nathan4104]

something is not right if your blowing the trucks fuses, the truck is the charger but 0 pump electrical load should be applied to the truck when the pump is operating.

I agree in theory. The pump and charge wires are obviously hooked to the same battery posts but that does not matter. It’s like the battery won’t deliver the current the pump is drawing so the trucks system is being drawn into the mix.
Maybe I’ll dive into that motor, I’ve had magnets come off RC plane motors, there got to be something funky going on. However it ‘sounds’ ok and turns over as free as a big electric motor ought to, pump was slightly stiff feeling but not knowing how it should be, it seemed ‘normal’. But 200-250 amp draw is not completely out of the ball park. Mind you, the only way to test it was to load the battery with the tester and match the volts to what the pump was pulling the battery voltage down to.
I won’t have time to tinker with it for a while, in the meantime ill pick up a new group 31 battery and re-hookup the charge wire from the trucks 7pin (and use a resettable fuse) to save the trucks fuses.
I also added quick connect hoses so I can disconnect the hyd pump and use the tractors remotes, which I do more of usually, just this time of year I don’t like taking the tractor out on the icy roads, R1’s tires suck on packed snow/ice, and with 5 miles of pavement in between, chains are not an option.

 

[cookies]

its not designed to be hard wired, its supposed to run through the trailer hook up through a charge harness with a separate charge circuit thats isolated to protect the trucks electrical system. I have a feeling something is damaged in your trailers charger circuit section allowing full draw on your trucks system, it should never blow the fuses on the truck side. If the charger or its circuits have problems it can destroy batteries in multiple ways pretty quickly, I would start by checking the pins on the trailer for correct placement in the holder and both sides for spread terminals and damaged wires...seen too many drug then "repaired" wired wrong. then move to the wires in the charge circuit and the output of the charger and test for voltage and amperage output to the battery.

 

[esshup]

I had my 7 pin connector start to go wonky. Turns out that over the years the connections inside lost some of their "spring". I took a small flat blade screwdriver, tweaked them towards the center of the connector (the one on the truck) and everything was working well again.

But I agree with the guys here, it sounds like something is fishy in the motor. But it can't hurt to check the electrical side of things either.

 

[nwmo_aggie]

Might just search for a complete new unit, looked like under $400 would have you a new pump and motor, closer to $200 for an import. Under $100 for a motor alone.

https://www.dbelectrical.com/produc...PP-JSiQPPQEFG8s5mSBoCiccQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
You can’t buy more wire and burn up more batteries for that

 

[homemade]

Did you start having the problems when you switched oil? A tractor and a dump trailer are two different systems. On the tractor it uses thicker oil caus the pump is always running so it will warm up and thin out. It also have 30-80 horse power to turn the pump (I didn’t look up the specs on your tractor). The dump trailer only runs while lifting and only has 1 hp. So the oil needs to be ideal viscosity at any temp. Maybe the tractor oil in the dump trailer is too thick, thus causing high current draw on the motor.


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[nathan4104]

Did you start having the problems when you switched oil? A tractor and a dump trailer are two different systems. On the tractor it uses thicker oil caus the pump is always running so it will warm up and thin out. It also have 30-80 horse power to turn the pump (I didn’t look up the specs on your tractor). The dump trailer only runs while lifting and only has 1 hp. So the oil needs to be ideal viscosity at any temp. Maybe the tractor oil in the dump trailer is too thick, thus causing high current draw on the motor.


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Thanks for the thought, this issue has been with this unit since Ive had it and with 2 separate trucks. The tractor oil is actually thinner than ‘regular’ hydraulic oil (aw32). Kubota SUDT, which was another reason I switched, as at -20, -30 temps the 32 oil would ‘slush’ up.
I know for sure I’ve drained the battery to dead many times and then am basically boosting it with the added cables I installed on the truck, so I’m likely killing the batteries though my own abuse. I’ve got the 7pin 12v wire hooked back up and will give it another try. I had found an interesting YouTube video wher the fellow uses a rely to disconnect the truck from the trailer while the trailer is being dumped. I’ve made this up and will use it after a few tries to see if I am indeed still blowing the trucks fuse. (I’ll also add a lower rated fuse than the truck at the trailer end to not pop the trucks fuse)

All lipstick on a pig though, covering up the real issue. If there was a shop to rebuild the electric motor closer than 300 miles to me I’d have it looked at.
I may also try to get a pressure gauge T’d in to see just what the pump is doing...

 

[sean donato]

Can believe the batteries arw skunked that easily, I have 2 group 31 batteries hooked up to my 12k lb winch, good for about 4 hours of heavy use before they need a charge. I've "flat lined" them a few times, where I would have to hook the truck up to them and let them charge a wile to finish a pull. I've found most 7 ways, if hooked up to the breakaway system seem to be current limited I have the box with the test light button on my trailer, and the trailers at work used something similar, it did 2 things, wouldn't allow power to be back fed to the truck and limited the amount of draw that could be put in the trucks electrical system. Which really should be plenty to keep a battery for your dump charged up in between use I would think.

 

[nathan4104]

So..... got it all back together and did a few cycles (empty). Had the trucks 7pin hooked up, no fuse blowing. What I did find was a chafed wire on that line, likely caused my fuse issue before.
I double checked the trucks 7pin 12v and it’s clean and working as it should be.
I had another lightly used group 24 deep cycle here that was fully charged that I put in the trailer for now, and it seems to be working fine.
I suspect most of my issues are low battery related. Maybe the pump’s Electric motor has a gremlin in it, but I’m leaning towards the way I’ve treated the batteries, running them down, not charging them properly (the extra cables I have on the truck are basically booster cables in a sense) so I was nuking them from a low charge state constantly.
I’ll have a few loads next week to do and will be able to give it a good workout of firewood deliveries.

 

[Del_]

I'm glad to hear it is working out.

I'll share my three days ago battery story.

I went to start the log splitter and it turned over a few times and stopped.

I changed the battery to another old battery.

I noticed that the control handle was on 'return' and the ram was all the way in.

So now I'm not sure if the battery I removed was just weak or if it was driving the hydraulic pump until stall.

It is always something!

I need to break down and buy a good battery load tester.

Another story because I'm old:

My 1987 F350's batteries were not working well. I said to the wife "It seems I'm always buying batteries!."

As I was pulling the two batteries I notice the battery date and that I had got ten years out of them. That's a long time!