Dutchman 101

[Giel]

On the topic of barberchairing: I was taught during training to always use a sap wood cut on both side of your facecut, specifically to avoid barberchairing. The theory goes that because of different structures of sap and core wood, different forces are generated when they hinge together. The sapwood cuts result in a corewood only hinge.

I do the heavy leaners in the same way, only then I bore cut what would normally be the end position of your back cut. Make the hinge the widht you want it to have (1/10 of diameter or so) and cut towards the back end (where you would normally start your backcut). Just before the tree drops, the woodfibres are loaded lengthwise, and in that direction they are incredibly strong.

Have always used this technique and those few occasions (2 in 13 yrs) where a barberchair did occur, it was in trees that only had sapwood left, no core.

This whole business of dutchmen cuts seems unnecessarily risky to me. Undermining hingewood is a big nono in my book

 

[pdqdl]

What exactly would be a "sap wood cut" ? Are you referring to cutting the sides off the hinge? I think some people call that "giving it ears".

BTW: 0 barber chairs in 27 years. Deeper notches. Wider hinges. Cut the support out from under the head leaners by removing much of the compression wood. No boring necessary unless you miss your cut. Boring is generally for saving timber value, not getting the tree down safely. Others will disagree, but it works for me.

 

[056kid]

What exactly would be a "sap wood cut" ? Are you referring to cutting the sides off the hinge? I think some people call that "giving it ears".

BTW: 0 barber chairs in 27 years. Deeper notches. Wider hinges. Cut the support out from under the head leaners by removing much of the compression wood. No boring necessary unless you miss your cut. Boring is generally for saving timber value, not getting the tree down safely. Others will disagree, but it works for me.

27years of tree service & falling timber arent the same...

 

[smokechase II]

Barber Chairs and heart wood

"On the topic of barberchairing: I was taught during training to always use a sap wood cut on both side of your facecut, specifically to avoid barberchairing. The theory goes that because of different structures of sap and core wood, different forces are generated when they hinge together. The sapwood cuts result in a corewood only hinge.

I do the heavy leaners in the same way, only then I bore cut what would normally be the end position of your back cut. Make the hinge the widht you want it to have (1/10 of diameter or so) and cut towards the back end (where you would normally start your backcut). Just before the tree drops, the woodfibres are loaded lengthwise, and in that direction they are incredibly strong.

Have always used this technique and those few occasions (2 in 13 yrs) where a barberchair did occur, it was in trees that only had sapwood left, no core."

Some thoughts.
In the NW for generations it has been taught that if you're going to do your back-cut - from the back - on a tree with BC risk do a triangle set-up that nips the 'corners' too. Then with speed and power stay with the cut even though she might be a poppin'.
More commonly, on the high risk 'chairs its bore the back now.
Occasionally, its do a face center, nip the corners and bore any back-cuts.

I've only had a couple 'chairs where I was cutting 6" ish LP (Snow bend - over 45 degrees) very slowly to try and create a BarberChair. Very safe set-up with other trees right there that I was protected by. Just studying. Pretty minor actually.

One of the reason for so very few 'chairs is my world of falling is almost exclusively dead/working on being dead/hazard trees on fires etc. Many are rotten in the center. I can't find any instances of a center rotten tree barber chairing on prior requests here. Giel, sounds like you've had that happen twice.

One of the reasons I've felt that I was 'chair free was what an old cutter explained to me. "You break up the continuity of the hinge you cut the chance of a vertical split."
Also explained to me was the concept of the smallest hinge possible immediately prior to it starting over reduces the risk of a BC.

In a large green tree with a truly heavy lean one cannot do a deep face as specified by pdqdl - deeper notches. The bar pinches in a face too deep on a heavy leaner.

Lets say one has put in a face as deep as a heavy leaner allows. Then you bore in about the middle of the back-cut and cut toward the hinge till the bar starts feeling pinched. Problem, too much hinge left on this very heavy leaner. Solution should have been to make a face center bore and also nip the corners prior to boring the back. (Full disclosure: I've only done this twice - also with a chain wrap.) (I was really glad I did.)(One of these trees I went off to the side for a good pee before any cutting - When I released the back the ground below me shook too and I moved back about 10 years in time based on my exit speed.)

- - - - - - - - -

Part of the reason I'm concerned about not removing center hinge wood too is how Larch behave. Larix Occidentalis ; Western Larch aka Tamarack in the northern mid-west. These trees were used for split rail fences throughout the west by the pioneers. Because they could easily split fence lengths when dry. (The wood also resists rot very very well.)
A tree species that splits well, in the condition (dry) where it splits the best, has to be taken more seriously. No brainer there.

{Also:
Larch are tall (over 100' is common in trees 18" diameter) and one of the commonly not discussed factors in barber chair risk is the height of a tree. The taller a tree is the more leverage it has. Greater force on the hinge area means greater risk of a 'chair. This greater force can be sponsored by wind, heavy green tree weight, strong lean, other tree leaning into, excessive wedging etc. But don't forget tree height.}

Back to cutting a dead larch. The sapwood is dried out and behaves like the more brittle less flexible heartwood in a green tree. Yet these things really want to BC. That is the nature of the wood. (Overall, I would suggest that sapwood - heartwood arguments are very very minor in dead wood that has had time to dry.)

I would not focus on any one size fits all cutting analysis especially with regard to wood characteristics.
Suggestion: No one should try for a specific face or hinge size from tree to tree or species to species.

Stay flexible : but don't go limp.

 

[pdqdl]

Yep. You sound like you have it all figured out. No argument from me.

...
In a large green tree with a truly heavy lean one cannot do a deep face as specified by pdqdl - deeper notches. The bar pinches in a face too deep on a heavy leaner.

...

True. I stop just short of that point, finish the wedge, and proceed to back cut. When the gap on the initial cut starts to close, it's time to stop. I have been known to shave the face cut deeper just to get a bit more depth. If you can get to the 1/2 diameter, that is enough.

The really tall thin trees like Larch just don't happen in our area. About the only trees that tall around here are cottonwoods, and they are not likely to be a problem for BC.

 

[056kid]

Cutting in stands where trees are tall, very clear,have considerable lean towards gravity(down hill), you are gonna get in trouble unless you are removing heart wood and or sawing one side off. busting logs is easily avoided when throwing the timber against its natural lean, Its when when you are going with the lean that things can get out of hand...


i have dealt with white oaks that would come apart unless allmost all the holding wood is severd before the face fully commits... A small time of year, sap, temperature clarity of the grain, how tall the timber is, it all plays a part...

 

[pdqdl]

To my way of thinking, there are only two reasons to cut down a tree.

1. You want the tree for some purpose.
2. You don't want the tree...where it is currently located.

My tree removals always take the form of "don't want it there", so I never care about the condition of the log once it hits the ground. My tree felling procedures don't take into consideration the value of the log once I am done hacking on it.

I certainly understand the different perspective of those fellers that want to keep the log in it's most marketable condition. I suspect you timber guys are more worried about ruining the timber than you are about getting the tree to the ground without risking a barber chair.

 

[056kid]

Well, they go hand in hand, any log that played lead in "barber chair" is no more good...

put a crack across the butt & 4 feet up, pretty much the same, put a small crack across the butt that you can fit a file in=bad.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i don't think a hard forward lean should get a deep face.

The face moves the pivot position back, thus granting even more lean to the forward lean; by virtue of the CG to the pivot angle, has now changed.

Different stiffness of species, heart, temperature, death etc. can make tree more prone to BC.

BC can spit upwards into the fattest part of log; so also, can a slower, more controlled fall; for the power of the braking is coming from stretching more fibre inside and grabbing more at the ground(from slower falling control by tree). The roots can also move and break pipes etc. underground from the roots grabbing at ground to brace against the falling forces.

 

[smokechase II]

face up

"The face moves the pivot position back, thus granting even more lean to the forward lean; by virtue of the CG to the pivot angle, has now changed."

===========

I agree. Either too deep or too shallow a face or a face that closes too quickly can all be contributors to a BC.

 

[Giel]

Many are rotten in the center. I can't find any instances of a center rotten tree barber chairing on prior requests here. Giel, sounds like you've had that happen twice.

Both happened early on in my "career" and in both instances I wasn't switched on to bore cutting the back cut. Both were also heavy leaners (one poplar and one ash).

Agree that once the wood is dead and dry the sapwood cuts (or ears as you call them) won't make much difference.

I would not focus on any one size fits all cutting analysis especially with regard to wood characteristics.
Suggestion: No one should try for a specific face or hinge size from tree to tree or species to species.

Right you are!

Would be good to get some videos of the different techniques discussed...I am going to try and shoot some on my next job

Cheers,

 

[pdqdl]

Ahhh. We all seem to have come together in the end on this.

TreeSpyder: as usual, your observations are correct, although I am inclined to press the limit on the depth of face cut. But you guys knew that to start with.

Does anyone know why a split trunk that flies up is called a barber chair? I can only imagine that it is related to getting a real close shave every now and then.

 

[pdqdl]

I did my own research.

I was waiting for one of my computers to finish a lengthy task so I figured out why "barber chair" is so named: Apparently, it is called that because the stump and the remaining portion of wood left standing on the stump after the truck splits away resembled a barbers chair to some old timer.

The name has apparently stuck ever since.

Now we need to figure out the origin of "Dutchman"...

 

[Giel]

Now we need to figure out the origin of "Dutchman"...

Was curious about that when I read first post...I' Dutch after all.

English is replete with expressions with Dutch in them. In (nearly) all cases the use of it does not reflect well on the one spoken to. Mostly used to denote sloppiness, greed, drunkenness, etc. My guess is that this use of "Dutch" originates from the Anglo-Dutch trade wars in the 17th century.

So why did this type of cut get the prefix "Dutch"? Because it was considered sloppy cutting by some?

Cheers,

 

[Giel]

Is it called Barberchair because you really need a new haircut after your skull has healed?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think the name came from the way it can split; and fold forward as it also sits back; kinda like a recliner/ olde timey barber chair before getting a shave; like on the 3 Stooges!

Another factor for the BC/ any kind of splitting is also cutting too slow on the backcut. In fact anything that allows the pressure backwards against the falling/ increasing leverage loading of the spar falling forwards; to all get so great that it overrules the constitution of the spar can fracture spar like this.

Another factor of drier/stiffer/deader that is more prone to splitting it would seem; is that it can also logically have less elasticity where tension support is needed (on the opposite of lean ). Thus, loading even more the compression into the facing in the more 'brittle' wood..

 

[056kid]

i think the name came from the way it can split; and fold forward as it also sits back; kinda like a recliner/ olde timey barber chair before getting a shave; like on the 3 Stooges!

Another factor for the BC/ any kind of splitting is also cutting too slow on the backcut. In fact anything that allows the pressure backwards against the falling/ increasing leverage loading of the spar falling forwards; to all get so great that it overrules the constitution of the spar can fracture spar like this.

Another factor of drier/stiffer/deader that is more prone to splitting it would seem; is that it can also logically have less elasticity where tension support is needed (on the opposite of lean ). Thus, loading even more the compression into the facing in the more 'brittle' wood..

Brittle wood wont slab as easly as sappy heart wood...

 

[John Ellison]

"On the topic of barberchairing: I was taught during training to always use a sap wood cut on both side of your facecut, specifically to avoid barberchairing. The theory goes that because of different structures of sap and core wood, different forces are generated when they hinge together. The sapwood cuts result in a corewood only hinge.

I do the heavy leaners in the same way, only then I bore cut what would normally be the end position of your back cut. Make the hinge the widht you want it to have (1/10 of diameter or so) and cut towards the back end (where you would normally start your backcut). Just before the tree drops, the woodfibres are loaded lengthwise, and in that direction they are incredibly strong.

Have always used this technique and those few occasions (2 in 13 yrs) where a barberchair did occur, it was in trees that only had sapwood left, no core."

Some thoughts.
In the NW for generations it has been taught that if you're going to do your back-cut - from the back - on a tree with BC risk do a triangle set-up that nips the 'corners' too. Then with speed and power stay with the cut even though she might be a poppin'.
More commonly, on the high risk 'chairs its bore the back now.
Occasionally, its do a face center, nip the corners and bore any back-cuts.

I've only had a couple 'chairs where I was cutting 6" ish LP (Snow bend - over 45 degrees) very slowly to try and create a BarberChair. Very safe set-up with other trees right there that I was protected by. Just studying. Pretty minor actually.

One of the reason for so very few 'chairs is my world of falling is almost exclusively dead/working on being dead/hazard trees on fires etc. Many are rotten in the center. I can't find any instances of a center rotten tree barber chairing on prior requests here. Giel, sounds like you've had that happen twice.

One of the reasons I've felt that I was 'chair free was what an old cutter explained to me. "You break up the continuity of the hinge you cut the chance of a vertical split."
Also explained to me was the concept of the smallest hinge possible immediately prior to it starting over reduces the risk of a BC.

In a large green tree with a truly heavy lean one cannot do a deep face as specified by pdqdl - deeper notches. The bar pinches in a face too deep on a heavy leaner.

Lets say one has put in a face as deep as a heavy leaner allows. Then you bore in about the middle of the back-cut and cut toward the hinge till the bar starts feeling pinched. Problem, too much hinge left on this very heavy leaner. Solution should have been to make a face center bore and also nip the corners prior to boring the back. (Full disclosure: I've only done this twice - also with a chain wrap.) (I was really glad I did.)(One of these trees I went off to the side for a good pee before any cutting - When I released the back the ground below me shook too and I moved back about 10 years in time based on my exit speed.)

- - - - - - - - -

Part of the reason I'm concerned about not removing center hinge wood too is how Larch behave. Larix Occidentalis ; Western Larch aka Tamarack in the northern mid-west. These trees were used for split rail fences throughout the west by the pioneers. Because they could easily split fence lengths when dry. (The wood also resists rot very very well.)
A tree species that splits well, in the condition (dry) where it splits the best, has to be taken more seriously. No brainer there.

{Also:
Larch are tall (over 100' is common in trees 18" diameter) and one of the commonly not discussed factors in barber chair risk is the height of a tree. The taller a tree is the more leverage it has. Greater force on the hinge area means greater risk of a 'chair. This greater force can be sponsored by wind, heavy green tree weight, strong lean, other tree leaning into, excessive wedging etc. But don't forget tree height.}

Back to cutting a dead larch. The sapwood is dried out and behaves like the more brittle less flexible heartwood in a green tree. Yet these things really want to BC. That is the nature of the wood. (Overall, I would suggest that sapwood - heartwood arguments are very very minor in dead wood that has had time to dry.)

I would not focus on any one size fits all cutting analysis especially with regard to wood characteristics.
Suggestion: No one should try for a specific face or hinge size from tree to tree or species to species.

Stay flexible : but don't go limp.

Good points SCII.
Comment about tree height is right on. Trees in this area are usually 60 to 70 ft. tall. The tallest ones are mostly less than 100 ft. I have seen stumps and cutting practices here in short timber where the faller would be weeded out in short order if the trees were twice as tall. Not saying that it could'nt happen but you are not near as likely to get a violent barberchair here like is possible in taller timber. There just isnt the leverage/power. The ones that do happen are more likely to be slow and mild.

 

[Burvol]

Good points SCII.
Comment about tree height is right on. Trees in this area are usually 60 to 70 ft. tall. The tallest ones are mostly less than 100 ft. I have seen stumps and cutting practices here in short timber where the faller would be weeded out in short order if the trees were twice as tall. Not saying that it could'nt happen but you are not near as likely to get a violent barberchair here like is possible in taller timber. There just isnt the leverage/power. The ones that do happen are more likely to be slow and mild.

That's right. Taller wood is more prone to the chair. The wind is what gives the most trouble here. It always blows here. The only thing I have seen to fight the wind is to open your face up from top to bottom a little more and either pack a 390xp or a 660.

 

[John Ellison]

Yep, and watch the top and get it on when its rockin in the right direction.