ethanol; government intervention

[dingo]

This wonderful state I live is taking it upon themselves to legislate the mandatory use of 10% ethanol in our gasoline. How is this going to affect my equipment, especially my two cycle engines? I am lucky that I can slip across state lines to buy unleaded, but the poor guy in the middle of the state is between a rock and a hard place. Do I have reason to worry about this or does the two cycle mix now a days compensate for the molecular sturcture of ethonal.:angry2: :angry2:

 

[Lakeside53]

This wonderful state I live is taking it upon themselves to legislate the mandatory use of 10% ethanol in our gasoline. How is this going to affect my equipment, especially my two cycle engines? I am lucky that I can slip across state lines to buy unleaded, but the poor guy in the middle of the state is between a rock and a hard place. Do I have reason to worry about this or does the two cycle mix now a days compensate for the molecular sturcture of ethonal.:angry2: :angry2:

Stihl says no ethanol mixed fuels.... and I agree. My limited observation on saws run on Arco (out here has 10% ethanol) is that they run real hot and the carb/fuel systems suffer...

Hopefully Ben Walker is watching this thread - he knows the BS from the fact on this one.

 

[Mike mandry]

Hey Dingo, are you in Missouri ??

If so, where are you at ??

 

[dingo]

Hey Dingo, are you in Missouri ??

If so, where are you at ??

Yeah, I am up here in the northwest corner, and I am a farmer, but I think this ethonal is a bunch of , well, anyway.

 

[Mike mandry]

Well, Im out in the sticks, just outside St Louis.

Its all 10 percent blend in st Louis & ST charls county. Has been for years.

The county I am in is emmisions exempt & I am just a stones throw over the county line.

All the pumps here do not have that little yellow sticker that we all dread.

However, being that the refineries are just over the river Im sure its 10 % here as well.

I have asked at the gas station & gotten nothing more than dumd looks ??

I run MX2t @ 32:1 & dump it in the car after a few weeks. Also, I always run 92-93

So far, I have never had any trouble....

 

[Patrick62]

Ignore the cost, here is a solution!

I ran over 2 gallons last year, little twiddling but it worked real well!

100LL, otherwise known as AVGAS.

Go get it at your local airport. Tell them you want to see if you can fly a Husky...

Seriously, it worked well, smells like real gasoline, started easy. Runs a tad rich with factory settings.

-Pat

 

[dingo]

Well, Im out in the sticks, just outside St Louis.

Its all 10 percent blend in st Louis & ST charls county. Has been for years.

The county I am in is emmisions exempt & I am just a stones throw over the county line.

All the pumps here do not have that little yellow sticker that we all dread.

However, being that the refineries are just over the river Im sure its 10 % here as well.

I have asked at the gas station & gotten nothing more than dumd looks ??

I run MX2t @ 32:1 & dump it in the car after a few weeks. Also, I always run 92-93

So far, I have never had any trouble....

Yeah, I used to travel your area before I retired and they can put up to 10% ethanol in the fuel without declaring it, the way the gasoline smells makes me wonder. It smells more like petroleum naptha than gasoline sometimes. I have always heard to keep the stuff out of the chainsaws, but you make me feel somewhat better. We burn the mix we brew in a days running and we shake it all the time.

 

[dingo]

I ran over 2 gallons last year, little twiddling but it worked real well!

100LL, otherwise known as AVGAS.

Go get it at your local airport. Tell them you want to see if you can fly a Husky...

Seriously, it worked well, smells like real gasoline, started easy. Runs a tad rich with factory settings.

-Pat

I have heard this before and might give it a try, I use to run AVGAS in a 55 Chevy; made it talk.

 

[eyolf]

I think we'll hear about fuels more and more in the major mfgrs owners guides. We already see disclaimers suggesting that we not store gas for very long and suggesting we avoid ethanol blends. But as we just learned, ethanol is all that is available for some and I'm sure that the major mfgrs are working on solutions. What are the knowledgeable dealers in Mo saying?

In MN ethanol blends ahve been around for a while too, and there was a major outcry from the OPE industry. WE survived! Many dealers suggest one or the other of these solutions: Use mixed gas within a week or two ( longer in cold weather), or buy super premium, "off-road" or racing gas, none of which have the alky here. Dealers are usually careful to explain that siezures due to bad gas aren't a warrantee issue.

I was at a home improvements store recently and saw a device like a large syringe for measuring oil in quantities as small as 1/4 oz...that's 32:1 in a cup of gas! 1 TBSP oil in a pint of gas is also 32:1. It is a PITA to mix up a pint of gas; maybe for occasional users there will eventually be a prepackaged premix available. Be very expensive, but maybe worth it for the guy that doesn't use his equipment a llot.

 

[Rygel]

Hey guys- way off topic but im from Hannibal orig. I miss the place alot as im stuck with little to no snow here and 90% pinetrees (blah). Use to hunt in Monroe all the time!


anyway- I'm glad no talk of 10% eth here so far! Heck we just got the lottery passed, use to drive 1hr to get tickets....couldnt imagine to just buy saw gas!

 

[dingo]

I think we'll hear about fuels more and more in the major mfgrs owners guides. We already see disclaimers suggesting that we not store gas for very long and suggesting we avoid ethanol blends. But as we just learned, ethanol is all that is available for some and I'm sure that the major mfgrs are working on solutions. What are the knowledgeable dealers in Mo saying?

In MN ethanol blends ahve been around for a while too, and there was a major outcry from the OPE industry. WE survived! Many dealers suggest one or the other of these solutions: Use mixed gas within a week or two ( longer in cold weather), or buy super premium, "off-road" or racing gas, none of which have the alky here. Dealers are usually careful to explain that siezures due to bad gas aren't a warrantee issue.

I was at a home improvements store recently and saw a device like a large syringe for measuring oil in quantities as small as 1/4 oz...that's 32:1 in a cup of gas! 1 TBSP oil in a pint of gas is also 32:1. It is a PITA to mix up a pint of gas; maybe for occasional users there will eventually be a prepackaged premix available. Be very expensive, but maybe worth it for the guy that doesn't use his equipment a llot.

We have a lot of knowledgable dealers here in MO, but they are not engineers. I am afraid this question will have to be answered in a lab with the guys trying to make a living being the lab rats. We run Huskys and Stihls and the Stihls are fading away already because of warrenty issues. The fuel issue has been bought to our attention on the stihl failures.

 

[musher]

In MN ethanol blends ahve been around for a while too, and there was a major outcry from the OPE industry. WE survived! Many dealers suggest one or the other of these solutions: Use mixed gas within a week or two ( longer in cold weather), or buy super premium, "off-road" or racing gas, none of which have the alky here. Dealers are usually careful to explain that siezures due to bad gas aren't a warrantee issue.

We also have a fair amount of stations now that have Non-ethanol fuel in their premium (91 octane) pumps; restricted (honor system) to vehicles requiring the higher octane, older collector cars and small engines (snowmobiles, atvs, mowers, chainsaws, etc).

Of course, we also have a governor and legislature that are pusing for 20% ethanol blend by 2010 or so.

 

[asb151]

Personally, I do not worry much about the 10% ethanol mix. If I did.... I think I would worry more about my $35,000 truck before my $600 chainsaw ( 2 stroke or not).

 

[sawn_penn]

Stronger blends than 10% can cause problems with some fuel lines and seals.

10% shouldn't cause any problems.

If you have ever had problems with water in fuel, those problems should go away as the alcohol allows the water to disperse in the fuel. In a car I drove in an area with really bad fuel supplies, I'd periodically tip a bottle of methylated spirits (essentially ethanol) into the tank to clear up water in the fuel system.

 

[eyolf]

for those who are interested, the ability of alcohol to disperse water works against us in products like chainsaws, string trimmers, ice augers, etc. That alky continues to draw water; the amount of water a certain amount of alcohol is able to keep in suspension varies as to temperature (and barometric pressure, to some extent). A can of mixed gas that is marginally OK at 50 F won't be much good at 20 deg...if you're lucky, ice crystals will plug up the carb and you'll just stop. If you're not so lucky, you'll lean sieze. At warmer temps, water droplets can also partly close off screens and small orifices, but also water droplets can make it through and "wash" the oil from piston and cylinder surfaces.

What isn't talked about as much is that gasohol has a shelf life...the alcohol can combine with some of the hydrocarbons, undergoing polymerization and esterification to products that you'd probably not really want to burn in your equipment. The presence of water in the fuel, drawn in by alcohol, causes further problems...especially inside the carburetor; we all know of the catalytic qualities of the noble metals, but may not be aware that there is some of the same effect with more common metals like Chromium, Nickel, copper and tin...such as in screens, welch plugs, springs, etc. in your little chainsaw carb, even the filter bob in the tank. Metal-crosslinked polymers in your plastic gas can may do this too...

Gasohol is OK in your chainsaw if it is fairly fresh, from a station that moves product quickly and has clean tanks, and if it isn't stored a long time in youir garage. If you can get off-road gas, why not?

 

[Marco]

Friend of mine was busy with a pressure cooker making his own ethanol and we found that a 10% blend wasn't bad in orange juice

 

[Lakeside53]

Friend of mine was busy with a pressure cooker making his own ethanol and we found that a 10% blend wasn't bad in orange juice

Was that HUSKY Orange or STIHL Orange?

 

[MS-310]

I think you guys wont like this to much but, I like ethanol it helps the farmers and the usa. I have made only like few gallons with are small still its fun and with 10% it wont to to much harm. The only thing you mite want to do is rich up the carb a bit (shouldnt need to with 10%) I have ran 50% of 200proof mixed with 87 in my ms-310 (i hate it) I just richend the carb way up. The only thing is i dont know how well the oil and fuel stay together, it work for like 2 tanks but i never had it set in the saw. I think ethanol is allsome, You use more corn fuel then gas but it helps farmers alot. I hope i didnt piss any one off its just want i like.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Taking tax money to subsidize a product that is a net energy LOSS does not help the U.S.A.

 

[NorthWoods]

A lot of this has been mention before, but I'll throw in my $,02.

I've been dealing with ethanol for over 20 years now in my vehicles and other engines (old tractors, trimmers, snowmobiles, chainsaws, etc). The 4 things that I have found to remember are:

1). Less btu's than straight gas. About 30%, if I remember right. So at 10%, you're running with 3% less power if you don't richen up. Up here in Minn., they have E85 at some stations (85% ethanol). Running that, you would need about a 25% richer mixture (on paper) to have the same power. This means less mpg also.

2). It has a lot shorter shelf life. I mix Stabil in all my gas that may not be used up in the next month or so. Up here, most of the premium pumps still are straight gas. I use this in all my 2-stroke engines. If the oil mix does not have a stabilizer in it, I put Stabil in that too.

3). Some older carburetor components (e.g. gaskets, o-rings. floats) are not made to handle ethanol and they will corrode/deteriorate.

4). Because alcohol has a lower boiling point than gas, vapor locking will happen sooner.

Dave