Ethics Question

[tree md]

As an arborist, I am often asked by friends and acquaintances advice on how to remove their own trees. It seems that everyone I come in contact with wants advice when they find out what I do for a living.

My question is do we as arborist have an ethical or moral obligation to not discuss technique with Joe homeowner?

I ask this because I have recently had two pretty close friends ask my advice on how to remove trees from their properties. They both live far from me or I would be doing the work for them. Both are wanting to remove trees that are close to the house and will have to be pieced out.

I advised both guys (as humble as I could) to seek out a pro to do the work. One has pole climbing experience and gaffs and I put it to him that he could hire a pro, watch and ask questions the first time, then he would know for the next time and then proceeded to tell him of some of the hazards that most HO's don't think about. He took the advice well, was not offended or felt that I was talking down to him and decided to hire a pro. I pretty much advised the second friend in the same manner but he continues to ask my advice on second hand gear, technique and whatnot. I told him I was concerned about him and that it was kind of an unspoken rule amongst arborist to not discuss technique with HO's, not that it is top secret info or anything but there are some ethical and moral implications when you might be telling someone just enough info to get them killed. I told him most arbos learn through apprenticeship and under supervision.

I hate to come off as arrogant or a know it all but I would never forgive myself if this guy seriously hurt himself going on what I had advised him to do without being able to supervise the situation.

Thoughts/comments?

 

[EdenT]

I think you have done the right thing. This work is not a hobby. It's not arrogance or being a know it all, it is simply declining the opportunity to be partially responsible for a disaster or a tragedy.

Maybe you could talk to a tree guy in your friends area and beg them to offer this guy a good price and the opportunity to watch and learn.

 

[oldirty]

imagine if you did tell him a couple of your moves and he tried to follow them up while standing on a ladder with a running chainsaw?

 

[tree md]

That's just it, you can tell someone how to do something but it would be impossible for them to get the whole picture without some hands on. It would be impossible to talk someone through a technical take down. That's what I mean by giving someone just enough info to get hurt.

I don't think it's a good idea to do so and could make one partially responsible if someone were to get hurt.

 

[BC WetCoast]

If he keeps hounding you for answers, then make the explanation as complex as possible, using as many acronyms as you can possible think up. If you make sound so hard that launching the space shuttle sounds easier, he will probably get the message.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I always tell folks who ask for DIY advice: If I give you advice and you subsequently get hurt, or worse, following it, you and/or your heirs/estate could sue me. Please understand I do not want you to be hurt, nor do I want to spend any time in court. Hire a professional to do your work. Be safe, not sorry.

No more, no less.

 

[Blakesmaster]

I wouldn't give a friend any advice on how to do the work, but I'd tell them how to hire for it. Get one of the guy's from here to do a cut and leave for them. We all love no hauls and you get the chance to screen the company yourself instead of washing your hands of the situation and leaving your friend to his own devices. Just a thought.

 

[tree md]

I have thought about that Blakes. He is going TDY for a couple of weeks with the Airforce. I might do a little inquiring here when he gets back home. He's got a wife and three beautiful kids and would hate to see him get hurt trying to do his own trees.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I hate to come off as arrogant or a know it all but I would never forgive myself if this guy seriously hurt himself going on what I had advised him to do without being able to supervise the situation.

Thoughts/comments?

Okay, from a homeowner's viewpoint, that sounds pretty good. I'm quite sure you'll have people who are offended by that approach, but I suspect most people will see the wisdom of it.

 

[Taxmantoo]

If a doctor ever asks, hit him up for advice on how to perform your wife's hysterectomy on the kitchen table.

 

[Mikecutstrees]

If he keeps hounding you for answers, then make the explanation as complex as possible, using as many acronyms as you can possible think up. If you make sound so hard that launching the space shuttle sounds easier, he will probably get the message.

Thats the technique I usually use with homeowners who want an in depth explanation and keep asking if that will work. I follow up with just watch... from a distance....

 

[tree md]

Okay, from a homeowner's viewpoint, that sounds pretty good. I'm quite sure you'll have people who are offended by that approach, but I suspect most people will see the wisdom of it.

Believe me, I was a little more tactful than it sounds in getting my point across. Both of these guys are friends and I wouldn't purposely offend them for anything.

I pretty much laid out some technical jargon on proper cuts, possible hazards and elementary technique and told them if they did not know what I was talking about or how to do it that they needed to hire a pro the first go round and watch, in hope that they would do just that and see that there's a lot more to it than just climbing up there and sawing away.

 

[clearance]

If he keeps hounding you for answers, then make the explanation as complex as possible, using as many acronyms as you can possible think up. If you make sound so hard that launching the space shuttle sounds easier, he will probably get the message.

Thats pretty good, baffle 'em and they will realize it ain't that simple.

 

[TimberMcPherson]

I just tell em that giving advice on how to dismantle a tree is like giving advice on how to land an airplane. And you wouldnt put a mate in that kind of situation.

 

[outofmytree]

I just tell em that giving advice on how to dismantle a tree is like giving advice on how to land an airplane. And you wouldnt put a mate in that kind of situation.

If you met some of my mates you might change your mind.....

As for the OP. You are right on the money. I have often done work for little or nothing for friends/family because I know that left to their own devices they would likely hurt themselves or someone else.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Believe me, I was a little more tactful than it sounds in getting my point across. Both of these guys are friends and I wouldn't purposely offend them for anything.

I'm sure you were tactful. What I was saying is that there are some people who are just looking for an excuse to be offended about something, so no matter how you say no, they will take it as an insult. You can't win with these people, so you just do your best, and let their problem be their problem.

 

[treeseer]

Both are wanting to remove trees that are close to the house

Yes you should give them advice--on how to assess their trees! It could be that the trees are no threat, and removing them would be a loss to their property values. Send them the attached, and ask them to close their eyes, take a deep breath, and imagine the benefits delivered by the tree in July.

The antidote for arborphobia, and the way to build a sustainable business, is knowledge--talk tree benefits!

If they are really friends, prune in exchange for dinner and...

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I phrase it as a liability issue, if they get hurt they might have to try to sue me for money to live. Then I say that I spent years gaining the skills to do it right and often end up finishing jobs that HO's screwed up.

 

[capetrees]

If he keeps hounding you for answers, then make the explanation as complex as possible, using as many acronyms as you can possible think up. If you make sound so hard that launching the space shuttle sounds easier, he will probably get the message.

:agree2: perfect

 

[flushcut]

I just tell them I'll be right over for a free estimate.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange: Or if they are a good friend I'll tell them I'll do it on the cheap under my insurance. I've even given advise (grudgingly) and was called later to clean up the disaster.