excavators & tree work

[clearance]

What has been your experience in working together with a excavator (hoe) to do removals and clearing? Climb it and put a rope in it get the machine to pull it over or do you get the bucket/top stick high on the tree, put in the cuts and get it pushed over? I love clearing with a good hoe operator but I was wondering how others do it. thanks

 

[glens]

The operators I know prefer to push the tree over whole, thus pulling the stump in one "fell" swoop.

 

[Koa Man]

A demolition company once hired me to take down a very large mahogany tree. They said to just cut it to the ground, no hauling and almost everything was a free drop. They would provide all the ground labor. They told me to come at 0930. When I arrive, there are only 2 guys, one of them the excavator operator. I set my line and tie off the one of the 2 branches that needed to be swung away from the chain link fence. After I got the 2 branches removed, the operator tells me that's enough, he got the rest. It is now 1100. He proceeds to dig a big trench right next to the tree trunk, then lifts his thumbed bucket and latches on to a big branch about 50 ft. high and starts pulling on the tree. After about the 4th pull, the whole tree gets pulled over. The other guy and myself start cutting off the branches under 12" diameter. The operator then grabs a steel I beam about 12 inches wide and 10 ft. long and uses it like a dozer blade to push all the branches into a big pile. He climbs the pile with the excavator and does doughnuts on it, crushing the branches into little pieces. We cut the rest of the tree into 12 ft. long sections which he picks up and stacks in a pile for the lumber mill. He yanks the root ball out of the ground and back fills the hole. Everything is cut and cleaned up by 1430. This tree was about 70 ft. tall and about 40 ft. wide with a trunk diameter of about 32 inches. It is just awesome what a big excavator can do.

Later I see him at another job site demo'ing a building for the same general contractor that I am removing several trees for. I thought I was done when the gen. contractor tells me, "You forgot the hedge." D**m he was right. I ask the excavator operator how much would he charge to remove the hibiscus hedge (about 30 ft. long). He tells me a case of beer. I tell him I'll give you two. He drives the excavator to one end, extends the bucket to the other end and pulls out the whole hedge out in about 10 seconds. Excavators are absolutely the best machines around if you want to destroy something.

 

[a_lopa]

The operators I know prefer to push the tree over whole

 

[fpyontek]

What has been your experience in working together with a excavator (hoe) to do removals and clearing? Climb it and put a rope in it get the machine to pull it over or do you get the bucket/top stick high on the tree, put in the cuts and get it pushed over? I love clearing with a good hoe operator but I was wondering how others do it. thanks

On Oct.16, 2004 a "ground helper" was killed in Northern New Jersey. Three guys were clearing trees in a wooded area in front of a home. A rubber tire back hoe was being used to push over trees. These guys were not tree guys, but the operator had many years experience with the machine. As one guy starts cutting the tree at the base the operator positions the raised boom against the dead tree. The movement of the boom against the tree broke out the top of the tree. The chain saw operator heard the crack and yelled "run"
. The ground helper must have run the wrong way. The piece fell approx 60 feet striking, and killing the guy, who was in his sixties. The story never made it into any of the area papers. I was just recently called in by the son-in-law to give a quote to the widow, who is now terrified about the trees around her home. A helmet would not have helped this poor fella. Experience, weather actual or passed on through safety meetings, education, or forums like this one is invaluable. This work is dangerous enough as it is. If you throw in heavy equipment and an operator not familiar with the dangers of tree work it could be a lethal combination.
Fred

 

[eyeinstine]

Well, i guess i can have a little input here since i am a hydro hoe operator.. I guess thi sthread carries over from the other thread with the guy looking to take on teh 2 acre clearing job..??

Anyone, Koa and glens has it right... Honestly, there is not much for a tree cutter to do on a clearing job with the excavator there.. they get used to cut out the large logs if they are being saved for the saw mill.. Pretty much anything under 12" just gets crushed, ripped, busted up with the hoe.. On tree's about 14" and under, we just push them over, roots and all.. On larger trees, we dig a deep hole/trench busting all the roots on one side of teh tree that we want to fall in that direction; move around to the other side and push it over.. that simple.. the hole acts the same as cutting a wedge in the tree, it just lets it collapse to fill the void.

You can make fast work, and get everything done in one shot.. trees, roots, stumps, brush, trash - with one machine..

I reallu enjoy going to work on clearing jobs.. In a sick way, the legal descruction is alot of fun! But the best is tearing down 2 story houses.. hasnt everyone just dreamed of that initial smash through the roof with a huge piece of machinery?? if your really feeling sick, imagining the house is your ex wifes, or girlie friend who dumped ya; makes it even more enjoyable..

Ron

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

most of the jobs I've been on we never see the big equipment. Just leave a 4 ft stump so they can get leverage on the root ball if it's over 20 in dbh.

I once saw an excavator stuck with a tree on top of it, and there was a similar pic (or link) posted here a few years ago.

 

[eyeinstine]

On Oct.16, 2004 a "ground helper" was killed in Northern New Jersey. Three guys were clearing trees in a wooded area in front of a home. A rubber tire back hoe was being used to push over trees. These guys were not tree guys, but the operator had many years experience with the machine. As one guy starts cutting the tree at the base the operator positions the raised boom against the dead tree. The movement of the boom against the tree broke out the top of the tree. The chain saw operator heard the crack and yelled "run"
.

Wow, i didnt hear about that.. Im down in central NJ.. Anyway, thats why i prefer to do the whole take down with the machine.. rarely is it needed to be cut with a saw until after its on the ground.. i think in the case you describe, a back hoe was not the proper machine to do the takedown by itself..

i have been in a similar situation, and i was not comfortable, and probably should have refused; but anyway. I was running the excavator putting in some field drains along the edge of a farm field along a dirt road. There was some very Large ( 36") dead oaks, Deader than a door nail, along the side of the road.. The land owner askas the boss if we can take em down since we were right there.. boss saws sure, the landowner goes and gets a old homelight with a 36" bar and comes back.. We couldnt disturb the ground at that point, so we couldnt dig and push like normal.. We just had to cut and leave the stump.. So the boss knows i like chainsaws, and run them, and he hasnt a clue.. So i am voted out of the machine and given the saw to do the cut while the machine is going to push. I look up and see many, large dead branches at 30-50 ft high.. Atleast i was smart enough to tell the machine operator to rest the bucket on the machine, and dont push, while i stand back.. Aftert he is just resting, and not pushing, i tell him in strong words, DO NOT push while i am cutting, on rest the bucket so the tree cant fal backwards into the powerlines behind us. After i make the notch, and a backcut, i will walk far away, and then you push.. After i am certain he understands, then we did the job and everything went smoothly.. While i was cutting, all i cut think of was one of the branches falling and killing me, and my 3 beautiful kids will never see their dad again..

Ron

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Everytime I do a widow maker, I ask myself if this is really worth the money.

Often I will tell the guys who have the "family" to back off and let me do it, but am I being fair to my parents and sibs (GF, now too) for risking so much for what amounts to $100 or so per tree.

 

[fpyontek]

... At least i was smart enough to tell the machine operator to rest the bucket on the machine, and dont push, while i stand back.. Aftert he is just resting, and not pushing, i tell him in strong words, DO NOT push while i am cutting, on rest the bucket so the tree cant fal backwards into the powerlines behind us. After i make the notch, and a backcut, i will walk far away, and then you push.. After i am certain he understands, then we did the job and everything went smoothly.. While i was cutting, all i cut think of was one of the branches falling and killing me, and my 3 beautiful kids will never see their dad again..

Ron

Good thinking Ron!

Exactly, don't assume the operator knows what to do and don' t hesitate to tell them how YOU want it done.

 

[eyeinstine]

Good thinking Ron!

Exactly, don't assume the operator knows what to do and don' t hesitate to tell them how YOU want it done.

Yea, even though this sounded like a dangerous and scary thing to do, i feel it was the safest way to do it.. Even safer than a tree guy doing it.. He would have needed to stand there until the tree started to fall; maybe even banging on wedges to start the fall.. And that seems to be when the widow makers fall, banging wedges, or when the tree finally starts to fall.. Doing it our way, the tree isnt subject to any movements, or forces, until everyone is clear..

Ron

 

[treeman82]

I have mixed opinions on machines on the jobsite. If the trees are already down, then fine, come in and move it around. However if they are still up, back off and let me do what I have to do.

 

[Lumberjack]

I think there is a false security when using large escavators to remove trees. I watched the MDOT (Mississippi Department of Trans.) remove a large oak tree. They planned on it falling into a ditch.

I tell one dude that they are outta there league and dont need to cut the tree. He says, man wit dat der machine we can do anything we want. I said oh, and moved my jeep outta range of the tree. They send a guy to attack the tree with a saw (codominant, one side already gone), he climbs up on top of the stump. They position the hoe 180 degrees from the intened fall direction. The man starts making the backcut, with no notch. I repeat again that they are fixing to FUBAR something to hell and back. They tell me to just watch, that they have been doing this forever. So i watch.

The tree fell about 90 degrees from the intended path, and tree slapped the hood and fender of one of the trucks i told them to move. They looked really perplexed how a punk 18yo knew what he was talking about.

I tried to suggest to them politely that they needed help, i told them they where, then they did. Go figure

 

[eyeinstine]

I have mixed opinions on machines on the jobsite. If the trees are already down, then fine, come in and move it around. However if they are still up, back off and let me do what I have to do.

treeman, i have to slightly disagree.. I think what your saying has more to do with other trades steeping on toes and taking work.. Not so much as the machine is not hte right tool for the job.. And i do agree with you, but i think it needs to be said clearer.. If there is a large tree, or a more, in someones back yard (an existing homesite), that needs to be removed.. It would be morally wrong for us to unload the excavtor and push 'em over and haul them away.. We can easily do that, but thats the tree guys trade.. We would be just as upset to see you having you labors digging footings for an addition when your tree work is slow..

now lets take a larger job in point. There is no existing homesite.. Most clearings with machines tend to be heavily wooded, larger homesites, or developments. That is where the heavy machines shine, and belong... No wise builder is going to call in the tree guys to cut the tree's down, then have them pack out, and then call in another contractor with machines to dig the stumps out.. It is almost always cheaper to get one guy in on the whole job. In the case of a development, or wooded home site. The excavator/dozer/etc comes in and clears the lot, digs the basement, grades the dirt, hauls away the excess.

Another problem with tree guys clearing lots, is the stumps. You cant just grind the stumps.. It leaves too much wood still below the grade. When its time to put in trenches with a trencher for lines and such, they are not happy hitting large roots or stumps. When the stumpage below grade decays away, you get sink holes in the asphalt or other uglys.. the stumps need to be removed, the holes filled and compacted with dirt.

Theres a time and job type for both trades to make a good living.. At teams working together as a team. As some other tree guys have posted, working with the excavator, it is amazing how much work can be down in short order..

Cheers,
Ron

 

[eyeinstine]

I think there is a false security when using large escavators to remove trees.
The man starts making the backcut, with no notch. I repeat again that they are fixing to FUBAR something to hell and back.

I think the key here, was the was no notch cut.. Thats just stupid.. If there was a notch, the tree would have fell where they wanted, and the job would have been a success.. What you witnessed had nothing to do with the fact there where using a hoe to push it over.. Its no different than a tree company tieing a rope up high and pulling the tree over.. Which is common practice. With a notch! A tree guy cutting that same tree, without a notch, would have had the same results.. Except the likely hood it could have killed him would have been much higher.. Atleast in the machine, you have 'some' protection.. But still not enough to do stupid stuff like felling a large tree without a notch.


Ron

 

[glens]

most of the jobs I've been on we never see the big equipment. Just leave a 4 ft stump so they can get leverage on the root ball if it's over 20 in dbh.

That is the operator's second-best choice.  They really appreciate at least having something to knock around.

 

[Stumper]

Another problem with tree guys clearing lots, is the stumps. You cant just grind the stumps.. It leaves too much wood still below the grade. When its time to put in trenches with a trencher for lines and such, they are not happy hitting large roots or stumps. When the stumpage below grade decays away, you get sink holes in the asphalt or other uglys.. the stumps need to be removed, the holes filled and compacted with dirt.



Cheers,
Ron

Eye, It depends- your point is valid but doesn't apply to all construction. I've ground stumps on a number of construction sites.- Unlevel ground, minimum tree removals to preserve the forest setting, stem wall costruction. The builders would shoot the lines and say "Okay we need these three stumps ground. This one needs to be a minimum of 24" deep or gone completely." Okey dokey!

 

[Lumberjack]

I think the key here, was the was no notch cut.. Thats just stupid.. If there was a notch, the tree would have fell where they wanted, and the job would have been a success.. What you witnessed had nothing to do with the fact there where using a hoe to push it over.. Its no different than a tree company tieing a rope up high and pulling the tree over.. Which is common practice. With a notch! A tree guy cutting that same tree, without a notch, would have had the same results.. Except the likely hood it could have killed him would have been much higher.. Atleast in the machine, you have 'some' protection.. But still not enough to do stupid stuff like felling a large tree without a notch.


Ron

I said it can offer a false sense of security and power, which it did. I drove past the stump today, remembered what happened and this post and laughed at those people yet again.

I think there are pros and cons to using a rope vrs using machine, some things to consider areleverage, and the placement of the force, and how that loads the hinge, and the overall speed (machine excells here normally).

With a good operator and feller many good things can happen.

 

[clearance]

Interesting comments,thoughts. JPS, a widow maker is a broken branch or top that can fall and kill the faller (thus making a widow), a dead tree is called a snag. My experience land clearing with a hoe goes like this. Always have worked with a machine that had the proper equipment (r.o.p.s., thumb, gaurding (a.k.a. logging machine) If it doesnt have r.o.p.s. then you have to use a rope. Me and the operator look over the site plan the work and then work the plan. The trees that I can outright fall into the agreed lay without wedging I do, when I have the time and safe distance from the hoe. The trees that can easily be uprooted he will push over. For the big trees I get the bucket/blade up high kind of hooked on the tree so it will go the right way. The operator will usually position his machine so he can push while rotating the pedastal. Sometimes we get the machine right behind the tree and push it. First I put in the undercut and then hand signal for the right amount of pressure I want put on the tree. Have to be real carefull cause you dont want it to chair, but if it has a bad lean you dont want to get your saw pinched. Then I make the backcut, usually leave a little more holding wood than usual. After that I get in the clear and the tree gets pushed over. Then the tree gets picked up with the thumb, on the little trees I buck of the stump but for all of them I limb and buck them to log length while they are held of the ground for me. Some times I just buck them to length after. You have to trust the operator and the bigger machine the better. This is my favorite kind of tree work, no cleanup and big results at the end of the day.

 

[P_woozel]

why not a trackhoe with a harvester head? You can go up to 40" and throw the tree. why screw around with ropes, facecuts etc?