"Extreme Logging" and "Ax Men"

[slowp]

GP has a big track of land nearby, and a few years ago we kept seeing cropdusting planes dropping below the treetops and decided to check it out. While watching them dusting pines we also saw them planting pines. They had a dozer that pulled a trailer. The trailer was enclosed except for the back. It was a mexican sitting in the trailer laying plants in the planter ( worked like a tobacco planter ). The dozer was going back and fourth over the land that had just been cut, over stumps and through ditches like they wont there. gave me a headache just watching , dont know how somebody could take that pounding all day. Looking out the back of the trailer he could only see where they had been so he didnt know if the next second was going to bring a stump or a hole.

As for replanting I am guessing each state has its own rules ??? I see some land around here get replanted and some is just left to grow back on its own.

Yup, you can plant that way where it is flat. I worked timber cruising with guys who had been the planter on the trailer and they blamed their back problems on doing that work. It sounded like they took quite a beating. They also tend to plant in rows that way. Out here, planting by hand just doesn't make for those straight rows, you are always having to go around a rock or log, and that's a good thing, it makes the plantations look more like nature planted it.

While in exile and working in the Up Nort Mid West, I heard constant complaints about the spacing of the rows and trees. I think they were 9 feet apart. The thing is, when those trees were planted, I bet nobody ever dreamed there'd be a processor and forwarder working in them.

 

[treejunkie13]

Slowp, how does the carriage pass over the skyline jack?

 

[Bushler]

Doug fir likes clear cuts because they love sunshine and are not shade tolerant like some of the other species. Doug. fir will grow faster in a same age stand, and doesn't do so well in multi age stands, or in partial shade.

 

[polexie]

Very good info on this thread, thanx

Lex

 

[Bushler]

For a copy of Oregon's Forest Protection Law's (beautifuly done book, well worth getting, almost coffee table quality photos and diagrams):

Write to:

Oregon Forest Resources Institute
317 SW 6th Avenue, Suite 400
Portland, OR 97204

tel. (503) 229-6718
(800) 719-9195

Web. www.oregonforests.org

email: [email protected]

 

[(WLL)]

For a copy of Oregon's Forest Protection Law's (beautifuly done book, well worth getting, almost coffee table quality photos and diagrams):

Write to:

Oregon Forest Resources Institute
317 SW 6th Avenue, Suite 400
Portland, OR 97204

tel. (503) 229-6718
(800) 719-9195

Web. www.oregonforests.org

email: [email protected]

im on it!! thanx man.

 

[slowp]

Slowp, how does the carriage pass over the skyline jack?

See how the line is held on the yellow rail? The carrage goes over it just like it does the skyline. Except, they yarder engineer usually slows down the carriage because it is more likely to come off and create unwanted excitement (sailing through the air) at the jack. Sometimes the yarder engineer forgets this while sending the carriage back down the hill and then the crew scampers out of the way and they will say bad things about the yarder engineer.

Heres a closeup of the carriage. The shivs (or is it spelled sheaves?) will go right over the jack. It makes a metallic kathunk sound.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

From the other side of the coin, the tree huggers say that replanting isn't regrowing a forest, it's planting a crop. They say a forest is a diverse ecosystem of a lot of different kinds of trees and brush. A planted area is a gridwork of one kind of plant, can never be a forest in that sense of the word and won't support the wildlife that thrives in a true forest. While I don't know what happens out west, I grew up in pulpwood central in mid-Georgia. You can drive down the road and see acres and acres of pines grown like an oversize corn field in rows that you can see down for hundreds of yards. No underbrush and no other kind of plant to be seen.

just another perspective,
Ian

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

On the other side of the country from the PNW we do very little planting and not so much clear cutting.

We clearcut jackpine and then drag the sites with anchor chains to break up the cones and allow it to seed itself. We also clear cut red pine plantations and either let them convert to other species or replant into Rowed red pine plantations.

Most of our logging is selection thinnings in mixed hardwood stands. Thin out the worst trees first cutting down to some specific stocking density. Leave your best trees as the seed source for regen. With this method there is no replanting as natural regeneration takes place. We have done some site conversions by underplanting certain species but it isn't very common.


Re: Extreme Loggers, the mule loggers IMO were hi-grading the heck out of that stand. Taking all of the big high value trees, that are what you want as a seed source for the future.

 

[willsaw4beer]

When my neighbors' property was logged last spring, they took all the big, straight hardwoods (oaks, cherry, ash, maples, walnuts, etc.) took any nice softwoods for boards, and left the rest. They left standing alot of bigger twisted hardwoods that weren't good for lumber. And the 15+ acres of tops which they let me have . The woods is still there, it's just been thinned considerably. What I'm trying to say is that I'd think that the stuff they left standing or left behind wouldn't have been worth their time compared to the big money hardwoods. Why bother when they could just move on to the next site get the big money stuff out, and move along. It would seem that way they'd make the most money per hour, and leave behind plenty of seed and shade trees. A strategy for veneer and lumber trees would theoretically be very different for pulp wood harvesting I would think.

 

[Gologit]

From the other side of the coin, the tree huggers say that replanting isn't regrowing a forest, it's planting a crop. They say a forest is a diverse ecosystem of a lot of different kinds of trees and brush. A planted area is a gridwork of one kind of plant, can never be a forest in that sense of the word and won't support the wildlife that thrives in a true forest. While I don't know what happens out west, I grew up in pulpwood central in mid-Georgia. You can drive down the road and see acres and acres of pines grown like an oversize corn field in rows that you can see down for hundreds of yards. No underbrush and no other kind of plant to be seen.

just another perspective,
Ian

And yet another perspective. I log mostly in second growth timber. Some of it was replanted after the initial cut, some of it regenerated naturally,
a lot of it is a combination of the two. Like Slowp said, in our terrain it's nigh impossible to get neat little rows of reprod growing like corn stalks in a field. Because of the nature of the terrain, the natural regrowth of volunteer trees, and the variety of tree types, our second growth forests are almost indistinguishable from what they replaced.

Our second and third growth forests are forests in the true sense of the word. They support as many, and as varied, species of wildlife as the old growth forests did. And now, with riparian conservation, watershed protection, and wildlife habitat a major concern there'll probably be even
more.
And brush? And undergrowth? Plenty of that.

Okay, that being said..theres something else. All of the above drives a lot of foresters and sawmill people absolutely nuts. What they want, and what would be most economically efficient, would be the cornstalk straight rows of trees growing all the same size, with no different tree species, and no brush. Logging is about production and production means getting the logs to the mill at the absolute cheapest cost. They could motor through it with their feller
bunchers, harvest it like stalks of grain, pull the stumps, spray for brush,
and start all over again. Just like growing any other crop...plant, cultivate, harvest, repeat.

In places like the South, and even some places out here, they're doing that and they seem to have quite a bit of success with it. Is it a forest? No. But it's what works for them.

The tree huggers need to be able to tell the difference. All they have to do is ask.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

When my neighbors' property was logged last spring, they took all the big, straight hardwoods (oaks, cherry, ash, maples, walnuts, etc.) took any nice softwoods for boards, and left the rest. They left standing alot of bigger twisted hardwoods that weren't good for lumber. And the 15+ acres of tops which they let me have . The woods is still there, it's just been thinned considerably. What I'm trying to say is that I'd think that the stuff they left standing or left behind wouldn't have been worth their time compared to the big money hardwoods. Why bother when they could just move on to the next site get the big money stuff out, and move along. It would seem that way they'd make the most money per hour, and leave behind plenty of seed and shade trees. A strategy for veneer and lumber trees would theoretically be very different for pulp wood harvesting I would think.

The is what I call hi-grading. Proper forest management shouldn't be about $$$ but what is best for the land. Leaving junk trees leaves poor genetic growing stock. Do you want your trees to reproduce from superior trees or twisted crooked ones?

When selectively harvesting hardwoods you shouldn't just take large trees. You should have some predetermined management plan, thin the stand to a certain Basal Area, cut across the diameter range, and cut the worst/sick/diseased trees first, next you should cut trees that do not have a good chance of increasing in quality and size over the next rotation.

 

[willsaw4beer]

The is what I call hi-grading. Proper forest management shouldn't be about $$$ but what is best for the land. Leaving junk trees leaves poor genetic growing stock. Do you want your trees to reproduce from superior trees or twisted crooked ones?

When selectively harvesting hardwoods you shouldn't just take large trees. You should have some predetermined management plan, thin the stand to a certain Basal Area, cut across the diameter range, and cut the worst/sick/diseased trees first, next you should cut trees that do not have a good chance of increasing in quality and size over the next rotation.

I always figured trees being twisted and knotted came from struggling to survive in the woods more than the specific genetics of the tree.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I always figured trees being twisted and knotted came from struggling to survive in the woods more than the specific genetics of the tree.

Much of it comes from predetermined genetics. Give poor genetic stock a great site and they still grow like crap. Thats why it is important to leave good stock to reproduce.

 

[Zackman1801]

My only guess is that it's easier and more efficient, from a logging perspective, to cut down everything and replant than it is to cut down 1 out of every X trees. I imagine it would be pretty hard to get the trees through a sparsely populated forest, than it would be to just cut it all down and roll up trucks. The operations on Ax-men seemed to run into issues when there were even stumps in the way.

thats not the reason for clear cuts, clear cuts are for other reasons more than they are for whats easiest. In the cuttings i do i cut only selectively, on areas that a forester goes through and marks out to ensure good stand management. Its not as hard as you would think to make trees go where you need them as long as you know what you are doing.

 

[slowp]

From the other side of the coin, the tree huggers say that replanting isn't regrowing a forest, it's planting a crop. They say a forest is a diverse ecosystem of a lot of different kinds of trees and brush. A planted area is a gridwork of one kind of plant, can never be a forest in that sense of the word and won't support the wildlife that thrives in a true forest. While I don't know what happens out west, I grew up in pulpwood central in mid-Georgia. You can drive down the road and see acres and acres of pines grown like an oversize corn field in rows that you can see down for hundreds of yards. No underbrush and no other kind of plant to be seen.

just another perspective,
Ian

Too bad you didn't get to drive through the St. Helens blast area. You could see the planted areas and the ones going natural. That area was one humongus clearcut. The replanted areas were logged first. They are ready for a precommercial thin. The unplanted is still pretty open and has so many elk that there's a problem with them overgrazing and starving to death. So, we have both in one place. The trees are not in rows, and there's a mixture of species. Huckleberry picking is not allowed in the monument so I want some new clearcuts made in the forest so there'll be more berries. The gourmet world discovered huckleberries and demand has increased to the point where we have a major influx of pickers during huckleberry season. We recreational pickers now have to compete with them and they have full time scouts out looking. Meanwhile the berry patches created by clearcutting are growing in, they were replanted and the trees are blocking out the sunlight that the berry bushes need.

To those of you talkiing about high grading, the kind of thinning done here and pushed by foresters is "thinning from below". You LEAVE the best trees for the future crop because it is when they are bigger and ready for harvest that you will make the money. You don't want to waste time with the scraggly stuff that is already showing it is slower growing. My tree farming friends call it Forest Enhancement.

However, the latest fad here is to have a description by diameter cut. The timber marker picks out the LARGEST diameter tree at stump height. That tree stays if it is alive. Doesn't matter what the rest of the tree looks like, it could have mistletoe, 100 tops, fire scar, etc. If it is the biggest diameter at stump height, it STAYS. The smaller trees within a certain radius of the big tree are cut. Like 10 feet. So, the largest spacing you'd have would be 20 feet. This supposedly cuts down on the perceived high grading of trees, and makes for "diversity" in the woods.

Like Gologit said, we don't cut old growth here. If we have to, it stays as a wildlife log. However, the environmental community hasn't figured that out yet and keeps bringing it up. They won't let go because it stirs up emotions quite well and keeps donations coming into their organization.

Much of Southwestern Warshington, pre 1980s eruption, was burned early in the 20th century. Look up the Yacolt Burn and the Cispus Burn. It was replanted by the CCCs and also came back naturally. It is part of what we harvest today. In fact, that's what Douglas fir likes. It is what is called an early seral species, comes in after the Alder. Alder fixes the soil with nitrogen, lives a short time and the Doug-fir is next. Dougs need sunlight. When they get to a point, the hemlock and true firs, which are more shade tolerant come in underneath. Eventually, they take over till another fire hits.
That's how nature does it.

The environmental groups want nature to take over. Except they don't like smoke in the air for months on end. That's how nature would do it, It is hard to put out a fire in West Side old growth once it gets running. It usually takes winter to do it. That's the alternative.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

Gologit and SlowP... nice posts. Rep for ya.

Ian

 

[Gologit]

Gologit and SlowP... nice posts. Rep for ya.

Ian

The hell with rep...send barbecue sauce. Send me Slowp's share, too. I'll give it to her at the GTG. Honest I will.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

PM me your addy and it's a done deed.

Ian

 

[wilbilt]

The hell with rep...send barbecue sauce. Send me Slowp's share, too. I'll give it to her at the GTG. Honest I will.

Do you like the local sauce (i.e., J. Lee Roy's) or do you prefer the exotic stuff imported across state lines?