fallen a tree where u want it..

[tony marks]

ive been playin with gypos falling cuts ,,
as pictured a while back.. the big difference was the back cut ,,was at an pretty good angle down to the hinge..
in foolin with that ,,i believe ive got better controll ,,and a wedge is more effective this way as its pushing to oneside more than just the minor changes u can do with the standard
accepted fellin methods... jmo ,,i welcome yours..

 

[max2cam]

The only truly reliable way I know of for directlng a tree-fall is by using a come-along and chains.

Yesterday I went down to the river on Pine Island where a BIG milling red pine is about dead. But there is big dead branchy jack pine in the way. So first I gotta put that big jack pine into a narrow slot between other trees and I'm not good enough to trust a wedge to do that. So I hooked up the come-along and chains and pulled it EXACTLY to fall in the right place.

Then I proceeded to cut that big jack up with my new CS-510 Echo. That saw is NICE!

So now I have to drop that really BIG red pine (after the kid and I clean up the jack pine mess and burn the tops). However, the big red pine is leaning over my sauna. No wedge can deal with a lean that severe. No way. The ONLY answer is the come-along and chains and even that will be touchy. I'll be glad when it's safely down on the ground. Then its Solo 690 milling time right there on the spot...

Guns, bikes, baby Harley....
http://www.atthecreation.com/

 

[max2cam]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
Slanted back cuts? Chains? Y'all are making this stuff up, right? Or is it April Fool's Day already?

The direction of fall should be determined by the notch, not the back cut. If you start the back cut and don't have your notch right, then sloping the back cut isn't going to help.

Chains? I've seen chains mentioned many times, always by ol' country boys who use chains because they don't know any better. Chains should be used for static loads, not dynamic loads. Since a chain does not stretch it is not suited for dynamic loads. And chains are too heavy to get placed very high in the tree. A rope can be set higher, easier, giving better leverage as well as some stretch in order to multiply your pulling power.

Y'all need to let this thread die an ugly and quiet death. Certainly don't want to teach false theories to any new users.

I don't know the theoretical "right" way based on "static" or "dynamic" loads, but I only know that chains and a come-along WORK for me and have for 20+ years and lots of cutting. They pull a tree in the direction you want it to go with very little guesswork and they also pull down lodged trees reliably. I have tried ropes, and yes, they do stretch and they do break. I'm talking good sized trees, not small stuff where ropes probably do work just fine.

However, if I'm doing something totally incredibly stupidly wrong, I stand ready to be corrected and educated and will repent if convinced of my evil ways.

Guns, bikes, and baby Harleys
http://www.atthecreation.com/

 

[Lumberjack]

The angle the backcut comes to the hinge has no bearing on how long the hinge stays intact. It does however increase the risk of the wood splitting along the grain. I have never used wedges very much problably a handfull of times. I perfer to set a rope in the top and CAREFULLY use a truck, or a MA system. Chains have there place, but not in felling trees. Like Brain said they are to heavy to set high enough in the tree to gain any effective leverage. With a bigshot, trowline, and a rope, one groundy can pull over a large tree without ever leaving the ground by using either a truck or MA. I think that a proper hinge (and coresponding notch) is the only way to ensure that a tree will fall in a given direction.

I commonly have to have the groundy pull at a vector to the direction of the hinge, and yet it goes where the hinge tells it.

I tell the hinge, the hinge tells the tree, and the rope gets it started.

Carl

 

[max2cam]

You guys MUST be talking smaller stuff. There is NO WAY a "groundie" pulling on a rope is going to convince the red pine that I'm talking about leaning over my sauna to go in his direction -- not even if he's Arnold Schwartzenegger. This is about a 100 year old tree with close to a 1000 brd ft in it.

Pulling with a truck? I'd end up with a truck smashed flat! The "groundie" pulling on a rope would get smashed flat too -- unless he is a ????ed good runner to dodge a big crashing canopy coming down like a freight train! Plus there's no way to get a truck down there. This is in the deep woods and swamp.

Climb trees and put the rope/chain high? I don't climb trees I cut 'em. I reach up as high as I can and wrap the chain around the trunk.

We are talking different types of jobs here.

Here's my technique: right or wrong.

I find a good anchor tree in the right direction and hook up the come-along and chains as high as I can reach -- 8 ft. The come-along is on the tree I'm cutting and I crank it tight. Then I notch and start the back cut. Then I crank some more. The tree gives a little. That's good. Then I cut a little more. Maybe I crank a little more. That depends. But the come along and chains pull that baby where I want it to fall. No pinched bars and no surprises. And since I usually work alone surprises are the LAST that I want to happen.

So now watch me go out today and get killed by my incorrect chain usage.....

Guns, bikes, and Harleys
http://www.atthecreation.com/

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by max2cam
You guys MUST be talking smaller stuff. There is NO WAY a "groundie" pulling on a rope is going to convince the red pine that I'm talking about leaning over my sauna to go in his direction -- not even if he's Arnold Schwartzenegger. This is about a 100 year old tree with close to a 1000 brd ft in it.

Pulling with a truck? I'd end up with a truck smashed flat! The "groundie" pulling on a rope would get smashed flat too -- unless he is a ????ed good runner to dodge a big crashing canopy coming down like a freight train! Plus there's no way to get a truck down there. This is in the deep woods and swamp.

Climb trees and put the rope/chain high? I don't climb trees I cut 'em. I reach up as high as I can and wrap the chain around the trunk.

We are talking different types of jobs here.

Here's my technique: right or wrong.

I find a good anchor tree in the right direction and hook up the come-along and chains as high as I can reach -- 8 ft. The come-along is on the tree I'm cutting and I crank it tight. Then I notch and start the back cut. Then I crank some more. The tree gives a little. That's good. Then I cut a little more. Maybe I crank a little more. That depends. But the come along and chains pull that baby where I want it to fall. No pinched bars and no surprises. And since I usually work alone surprises are the LAST that I want to happen.

So now watch me go out today and get killed by my incorrect chain usage.....

Guns, bikes, and Harleys
http://www.atthecreation.com/

You are DEAD wrong.

If you want to talk board feet, i took a pine over that had about 1500 brdft with a jeep cherokie and a 3/4" rope rated to 19k.

I took down a 90ft pine this saturday afternoon, using a 1/2" super braid (200ft $154 from sherrill which can be lifted with one hand) and a MA system. the trunk was 75' long 30" at butt end and 14" at the small end... that comes to around 4000 brd ft on the international scale using a calculator on the net.

Now if you want to pulling against the lean, I used a 3/4", block in the tree, and a 3/4 chevy 4x4. The tree was 40" in diameter, and had an aproximante backlean of 20-25 degrees. I pulled it over smoother than butter on glass.

You are doing it wrong. Period. On a nutural tree with no lean ect, I could hold back your come-a-long back, with one hand, from pulling the tree over with my 1/4" bull rope (Black Widow $180 7000# tensile) set in the top, and your chain at 8'. Leverage is
everything, not brunt force.


You said ropes break, so will your chain. I use chains to pull tractors out of 5' of mud. They break also, and are heavier than rope by far. When a chain breaks, it can easily go through a tail gate, through the cab and kill anyone inside.

With a rope, set it high, and have your groundie (or yourself because you work alone, get farther out than the tree is tall.

You need to listen to what others say, your method will fail.


Carl

 

[Lumberjack]

Follow this math:


Your ton come-a-long set at 8' off the grade is probably 6' off the hinge or fulcrum. 2000lbs x's 6' is 12000 pounds of leveraged force.

TOTAL=12000 POUNDS

My rope set at say 75 foot above the hinge. My weight 230(what I can pull normally) x's 75 is 17250 pounds of leverage

My rope, same place with my 6:1 MA. 6 x's 230 x's 75 is 103500 pounds of leverage.

So by my self, in a normal situation I can out leverage your come-a-long by 5200 pounds. With my MA, I could do a little under 9 times what your come-a-long could do.


12000 pounds of leverage at 8' or
103500 pounds of leverage at 75'?

Just a hypothetical, as the tree gets higher, so does my advantage, you loose yours because of the added weight above the fulcrum.

Another thing, you must leave a big hinge because you are pulling at a horizonal vector to the hinge at a lower height, which could break the hinge prematurley and send it goin were ever it wants.


Carl


Like I said it is all about leverage

 

[Doug01]

Without climbing the tree, what is the best way to get the rope tied off high?

Doug

 

[WoodTick007]

I guess I am curious...... Why are some of you men using ropes and chains in the woods to fell trees. I have found that the hinge wood with a properly cut notch controls the direction of the tree fall. I have used and use wedges to keep the trees weight from pinching the bar while cutting. But I have had great success dropping trees with the proper notch and back cut.

If you are trying to fell large trees in the city near buildings, it might be best to use a climber in the tree to saftley take it down.
It is very scary to watch a someone in a trailer park cut a tree and pull it with a truck/car/atv/moped. Normally some part of the tree ends up on the cutters DoubleWide.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I've never used a wedge to throw a tree, nor a chain to pull one.

When it doubt, put a rope in it. Up HIGH.

Yell 'timber'!

And loose the dogs of war.

 

[tony marks]

well i appreciate the candor and honest opinions... that mixed with things i learn in the field make me an little better woodsman. and of course ill still do it my way.

 

[Gypo Logger]

When I cable a tree, I think of it more as preventing the tree from going where I dont want it to go, as opposed to just yanking it over. Hinge wood is extremely strong and cabling, used in conjuction with wedges and proper placement of felling cuts will all but gaurantee a good job, however this one, which was in a Park in Toronto was looming over a house and was not to sound, so I yanked it over as the chopper was sawing on it. Safe, maybe not, but the faller must learn to run faster scared than mad.
John

 

[John Ellison]

Listen to these guys,they are telling you right.
There is no reason to use a slanted backut and at least a couple of reasons not to.
Ive pulled trees with yarders, skidders and dozers,with lines set like mentioned above( as high as you can reach) . But by far the surest most no sweat method is a good rope set 3/4 or so up the tree. Without leverage you are putting a huge strain on the hinge and whatever line you are pulling with.

John

 

[SilverBlue]

I wouldn’t suggest that you imitate John’s techniques unless you have the years of experience that he has. Tony, if you ever get the chance to work with Lambert for a day, believe me you will become a better woodsman.

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Doug01
Without climbing the tree, what is the best way to get the rope tied off high?

Doug

I would use the bigshot like Brain Says. I use a 10oz bag with 180 feet of 1.75mm Zing It. On some trees, such as pines, you need more weight to get the zing it back to the ground. Then on most I use the zing it to pull up the 1/2" super braid.

Cost from Sherrill:
Big Shot: $95
10oz bags: $10
180 ft of Zing It: $22
200' of Super Braid 1/2": $154

Total: $281 plus shipping

This would get you up to about 100', but you need at least 225' to go 100'.

I would recommend getting a coupla throwbags and throwlines because the can get stuck up in the tree.

You could make a small (3:1 minus friction) Mechanical Advantage system using just the rope very easy.

This would get you started very well. On super tall trees you can use a lead fishing weight (a coupla oz.) and a strong fishing line such as the spider wire that has an 80# test. This could get you up to 150'+, but I doubt you would need more than 100' to get most trees over.


Carl

 

[Ryan Willock]

I saw a homeowner drop a tree on his Harley's last summer using the 6-8' of height method. Tony your going to get hurt using a sloping backcut, OSHA strictly forbids using a sloped backcut because of the stress it puts on the hinge not to mention if the tree comes over backwards then that sloping cut can throw the butt of the tree in to the air quite nicely.... Care to guess where its going to land???? Ya, thought so! If you can't put the tree (in a woods situation) where you want it with a wedge then use a hydrolic tree jack or place a ROPE at least 2/3 of the way up the tree. If you aren't willing or are incapable of doing that then you shouldn't be falling trees anyway!!!

 

[Doug01]

Rocy/Lumberjack

So how do you tie the rope once it is where you want it on the tree and got the other end on the ground? Sorry, I'v only needed to do this once or twice and it was by the shed so I just used a ladder.

Doug

 

[Dennis Cahoon]

Jehovah Witness Backcut

On the west coast the sloping back cut is also called the Jehovah Witness back cut. Because if you use it, you better start praying which way the tree might go. Amen brother. If you feel lucky give it a try! Dennis

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by Doug01
Rocy/Lumberjack

So how do you tie the rope once it is where you want it on the tree and got the other end on the ground? Sorry, I'v only needed to do this once or twice and it was by the shed so I just used a ladder.

Doug

On a tree with a trunk (pine not Live Oak) is how I will answer.


Get on the backside of the way you want the tree to go. You shoot your trowline through the top of the tree and let it return to the ground. Then you tie your rope to the throwline, and pull it back over the tree and back to the ground. Then tie the end of th rope around the trunk of the tree above where you are going to cut it. Now you have your rope in the tree, with the free end of the rope on the correct side of the tree. It is important to make sure the rope is against the trunk, because you don't want to break a limb, and have the rope go slack. Give it a coupla pulls to make sure that it is set, and watch how you little pulls move the whole top of the tree, like there is a windstorm. Then cut and pull over.


pretty simple, but with that method, you use alot of rope because the rope travels back to the ground, instead of being tied in the top.


Another method involves singling out the trunk/spar, or a stout limb, after sending up your throwline. I perfer the rope to go around the trunk instead of a limb. You set the line like before, but after you pull the rope over, shoot the throwline back through the tree, and pull the rope back throught the tree, to make the rope make a loop around the tree. Then tie a running bowline, and send it back to the trunk. However the closing loop is prone to getting caught up on limbs, making you loose leverage.

I perfer the first method when felling trees without climbing.

Carl

 

[MasterBlaster]

Youse guys are are turning this stuff into chinese 'rithmatic!