forestryworks
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By hook or by crook, MacKendrick!
Falling pics 11/25/09
- Thread starter Burvol
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By hook or by crook, MacKendrick!
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
On the one hand, sounds good -- work and money aplenty -- on the other hand, if I get deployed on a bunch of project fires elsewhere, what will we lose here? I'm in Placerville, CA right now for advanced cruiser training. Friday I'm in Tampa, FL, mostly on vacation. We've already had a pile of fires in the last week. Last year? A swing and a miss. The fuels are there to cause a record year for fires, but what of the weather?
Talking with FS folk, there is a general concern over a lack of standards between regions. R5 vs R6? Sure, makes sense. BUT -- what about within regions? R6 includes, for example, both Colville and Klamath. Those are in NO WAY the same bioregions. Yet, the USFS wants to administer fire control within the region as though it was somehow "the same".
Are we just looking at a R5 "People's Republik Of Kalifornia vs Everyone Else" thing, or is there a serious disconnect? Well, rumor as it that NorCal is on standby while SoCal is deployed to TX/NM/OK. Is this OK? Will NorCal be comp'd later in the season?
Maybe there ought to be a 12 step program for guys who leave the woods...Loggers Anonymous.
David (saltas)
Addicted to ArboristSite
@ madhatte
Nothing else quite burns like Eucalyptus does it
Nothing else quite burns like Eucalyptus does it
mile9socounty
Two-Stroke Swope
A swing and a miss is correct. For the whole of what fire season we had last year. Myself and my crew got to set boots on only one fire. Not even in Douglas County! Believe it or not, it was in Jackson County. East Evans Creek is a nasty rocky steep place. The rocky terrain did open the eyes of my green crew. They were getting all sorts of ticked off digging line is sheer rock.
We had the potential for a great fire season last summer, just no starts. It seems that "mother nature" is going to drag her free as long as she can with this cool wet weather. Which on one hand is perfectly fine. The green up will be greater. The ground moisture will be outstanding and when it decides to evaporate. Hell we should see some decent thunder cells building.
The bosses claim its going to be another mild and boring summer. I highly doubt this. If we continue down the road of a couple mild summers. The big one will hit us and good. I guess it is what it is.
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Our local weather guesser has done pretty good predicting the weather this year. He's calling for a big warm up during July, maybe August. If that happens with any amount of moisture, I think we'll see fires in the NW.
We've already seen how destructive this weather pattern has been so far.
The logging will be good while this moisture and cool hangs out, but two things can shut them down right quick. The first is long stretches of warm, with intermittent intense thunderstorms. Not only do you not log anywhere near cable during storms, but it'll most likely kick off fires.
It used to be, that loggers would just segue into firefighting from logging. . . But now it's all political and harder to get on.
I watched a logger get turned away from a fire with his D6. He was close and crawled right up to the seat of the burn while it was still under an acre. He was told to go away, because he wasn't "qualified" to do anything. That particular fire burned a lot more ground before it was all said and done.
I watched a logger get turned away from a fire with his D6. He was close and crawled right up to the seat of the burn while it was still under an acre. He was told to go away, because he wasn't "qualified" to do anything. That particular fire burned a lot more ground before it was all said and done.
That's why our equipment operators are red-carded. Having hands tied is no fun.
Running things "by the book" with a good dose of "political" thrown in gets people killed. Never the people that make the stupid calls either, it is always the boots on the ground that pay the price.
I think alot of it can be blamed on lawyers. No matter what happens they sue somebody. Agencies all over the place are trying to be sue proof, but no such thing exists as long as there are lawyers.
Mr. HE
I think alot of it can be blamed on lawyers. No matter what happens they sue somebody. Agencies all over the place are trying to be sue proof, but no such thing exists as long as there are lawyers.
Mr. HE
As an example there was some flooding. A big tree on a river bank was over into the swollen river, pushing hard against a bridge that was needed to evacuate a small community that was flooding. The only guy that worked for the highway department with proper credentials to run a saw that big was over an hour away. So they just sat there with the bridge closed, cars backing up on the wrong side, waiting.
It was pretty simple but very dangerous, cut the tree at the stump, it would turn, go under the bridge and move downstream to the lake.
An older logger came by and offered to make the cut. I didn't know him but you could tell in a glance he knew his stuff, everything from the old 4x4 truck to the clothes to his saws in the back. Highway guys said "No, we have to wait for our guy." It was stupid so I said "My badge trumps your highway authority. I'm giving the go ahead for him to make the cut. Anything goes wrong you can blame it on me."
Old guy sized it up and made the cut in about ten minutes. Bridge was saved, people evacuated, highway guys pretended it never happened. I was told their official report would say that the tree worked free by itself.
Mr. HE
It was pretty simple but very dangerous, cut the tree at the stump, it would turn, go under the bridge and move downstream to the lake.
An older logger came by and offered to make the cut. I didn't know him but you could tell in a glance he knew his stuff, everything from the old 4x4 truck to the clothes to his saws in the back. Highway guys said "No, we have to wait for our guy." It was stupid so I said "My badge trumps your highway authority. I'm giving the go ahead for him to make the cut. Anything goes wrong you can blame it on me."
Old guy sized it up and made the cut in about ten minutes. Bridge was saved, people evacuated, highway guys pretended it never happened. I was told their official report would say that the tree worked free by itself.
Mr. HE
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
As an example there was some flooding. A big tree on a river bank was over into the swollen river, pushing hard against a bridge that was needed to evacuate a small community that was flooding. The only guy that worked for the highway department with proper credentials to run a saw that big was over an hour away. So they just sat there with the bridge closed, cars backing up on the wrong side, waiting.
It was pretty simple but very dangerous, cut the tree at the stump, it would turn, go under the bridge and move downstream to the lake.
An older logger came by and offered to make the cut. I didn't know him but you could tell in a glance he knew his stuff, everything from the old 4x4 truck to the clothes to his saws in the back. Highway guys said "No, we have to wait for our guy." It was stupid so I said "My badge trumps your highway authority. I'm giving the go ahead for him to make the cut. Anything goes wrong you can blame it on me."
Old guy sized it up and made the cut in about ten minutes. Bridge was saved, people evacuated, highway guys pretended it never happened. I was told their official report would say that the tree worked free by itself.
Mr. HE
Ahhhh, the fear of being sued, it does powerful things to folks.
COFFEE IS HOT BY GOD!
Kind of a thread drift, but beware the operations fire. Make darn sure you have the correct amount of hose, tools, etc. When the fire is out, if agencies have responded, they WILL look for a way for you to pay for it. I went through this experience. The fire guy suddenly became a timber sale contract "expert" and mentioned that there was a roll of hose missing on the fire truck, and that meant the fire was "negligent". I had to point out that the extra roll of hose would still not reach to where the fire was, and the logger had it under control by the time they arrived. He had put a cat line around it, and the sky opened up and doused the flames. The cause was a feller buncher catching on fire and burning up. It also sounded like the fire crew was milking their time on the mop up a bit. Anyway, the FS ended up not getting paid for their response.
Things can get extra nasty so make sure you have everything up to snuff. The blame game is alive and well, especially in lean budget years.
Things can get extra nasty so make sure you have everything up to snuff. The blame game is alive and well, especially in lean budget years.
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Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Don't even get me started on some of the shystery things I've seen DNR and FS do on fires. :bang:
Greenwedge
ArboristSite Operative
By all means.........get started!
I'd say 33% of why I quit going on fires was because of all the wasteage. My taxes were paying for that BS.
I shall tell one episode. I went as overhead, also known as overfed, and worked in the plans dept. The fire was winding down. The fire was in mopup and crews were starting to be sent elsewhere. In comes a load of plywood. The IC (incident commander) had ordered the plywood, knowing that the fire was about done for, because he wanted to show a buddy how fast those "hamburger stands" could be assembled. So, the carpenter guys went to work and construction was finished, the next day they were torn down as everybody was to be demobed--fire over.
But not to worry, the ranger district got to have the used plywood so nothing wrong....right? :bang:
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Fine example Miss P. How bout getting saws, tools, sleeping bags, tents, water jugs, etc. . . All thrown in a hole dug by a cat. The the dozer runs it's tracks over it a few times to crush it good, and bury it.
All to keep their budget numbers good for the money they want to blow the next year.
Super. . .
Sport Faller
Gate Pimp
I think I'm gonna barf, but it might not be a bad idea to take not of the gear "cache" and head back later just to see if a guy could maybe dig up a 440 or 3 that hadn't gotten hit
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
The snatch and grab was done in the past, then guys would come back to town and pawn/sell the stuff. That's when the pulverizing by the cat began. They wanted to make sure it was all destroyed thoroughly.
Not sure if they still do that, it may have been kiboshed?
Next year budgets are very important to a bureaucrazy, so wastefulness is a non issue. . . For them.
It used to be, that loggers would just segue into firefighting from logging. . . But now it's all political and harder to get on.
I watched a logger get turned away from a fire with his D6. He was close and crawled right up to the seat of the burn while it was still under an acre. He was told to go away, because he wasn't "qualified" to do anything. That particular fire burned a lot more ground before it was all said and done.
That still happens. A few years ago there was a fire on FS property that borders some of our ground. The fire was headed our way. It was a bad year for fires and everyone's resources were spread real thin. Some fires didn't have anybody on them.
I took my 6 and was cutting out some old roads into waterholes, on our ground, for the water tenders to use. I figured it was the least we could do. When I got the roads opened up there was a steady stream of tenders in and out...it was the closest water source to that side of the fire.
The fire was still coming on strong so I started cutting line and, in the process, got over onto FS ground. And, in all honesty, I knew I was. Didn't matter to me. There was nobody else there to do it.
A couple of hand crews showed up and our little corner of the fire was pretty much taken care of. I didn't think much about it at the time.
I heard about it later, though. Somebody snitched. I wasn't "carded" on the Cat, the Cat wasn't inspected, nobody had given me a formal dispatch and that apparently had some people, people in an office somewhere far away from the fire, upset.
I got a letter. They had no "verified record or credential prepared and submitted by an accredited party" concerning me, my Cat, or my activities that day. This irritated them. I ignored the letter. I was logging.
They sent me paperwork to fill out. Lots of paperwork. I read it and threw it away. When the next batch of paperwork showed up I did the same thing. They started phoning. Their paperwork wasn't complete and I was the culprit. I quit taking their phone calls.
They finally sent a guy out to talk to me, someone I knew. We had a good conversation and I think we each learned a little bit. He went back and filed a report based on our conversation and the flow of paperwork and phone calls finally stopped.
I got a rather nasty little note from the FS about the whole thing but no penalties were assessed.
I never heard a word about our efforts in opening up the water holes...good, bad or indifferent.
I'd do it again if the same situation came up.
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I was never around the pulverizing. There was The Night Of The Living Dead, in Orleans, CA. After dark, all sorts of folks started coming out of the woodwork. We ended up getting very bright lights and lighting up the perimeter of the supply cache, because that was where the zombies were flocking to.
It was kind of scary, til the LEO appeared.
A friend and former neighbor of mine went out to pick up an airdrop of supplies, and almost got into a struggle with some locals who happened to be coming by. That was up the Salmon River from Somes Bar. I believe an LEO had to come to his rescue.
Interesting place, that is.
It was kind of scary, til the LEO appeared.
A friend and former neighbor of mine went out to pick up an airdrop of supplies, and almost got into a struggle with some locals who happened to be coming by. That was up the Salmon River from Somes Bar. I believe an LEO had to come to his rescue.
Interesting place, that is.
