Falling pics 11/25/09

[Bwildered]

You're right about one thing, I've never cut any wood in Australia. That's the only thing you're right about.
I've cut oak, madrone, and eucalyptus quite a bit, both green and dead. Dry euc is probably the hardest would I've ever seen.
If a faller refused to cut every tree he thought presented a hazard he wouldn't have a job very long and his reputation for being overly cautious would precede him.
I understand that you don't have much experience and I don't hold that against you. Everybody started from zero but most of them learned as they went along and the good ones are still learning every day.
You, on the other hand, seem unable or maybe unwilling to accept any methods and beliefs that are different from your own.
With your attitude you'd last maybe half a day working in the woods until your boss found out what a complete ***** you were and they'd be sending you to town before you hurt yourself or, most importantly, somebody else. If you were on a crew that I was running you might not make it until lunch.
Now, that being said, I wish you luck. I mean that. I really do.

Ha ha what a joke! That tree was more than likely a few hundred years old & had the guts burnt out of it before captain cook even set foot here, you've seen nothing like it (eucalyptus) old china, it's just not possible!

 

[Bwildered]

Appreciate all the feedback both positive and negative.
The tree wasn't dead, a burnt out hazard yes but definitely not dead.
The tree fell the intended direction, due to the large hollowed out section there wasn't enough room to skarf/notch it like normal and place a back cut, this is where my problem was with getting the tree to tip over.

While I realise what I did is probably dangerous, it was our only option at the time, given how far we were from anywhere and the equipment we had on hand.
If none of us took risks in life we wouldn't have evolved the way that we have, it was a calculated risk that I was comfortable with

I hope I don't ever get as alive as that tree was when you fell it, although I know its inevitable in the end. You did survive but you wouldn't want to repeat it too often & test your luck!
Natinski

 

[bnmc98]

Ha ha what a joke! That tree was more than likely a few hundred years old & had the guts burnt out of it before captain cook even set foot here, you've seen nothing like it (eucalyptus) old china, it's just not possible!

You're making a stink about one tree. Every faller has walked away from a tree before so your point is worthless. Usually they find another way to get it down. The issue is you are telling people never to put a wedge in a dead tree and smack it. And now you quote some publication that recommends the same thing, but does not say "never" and its a government publication at that, which is based of fear of lawsuit so that again is worthless. I have been in the government training for chainsaw safety up here. I had to relearn just about everything when I went into logging. Their methods are designed around safety for the most inept, accident prone, underqualified, lack of common sense people out there so they don't kill themselves.
Even after that training, I watched a guy on our crew cut completely through a railroad tie with the chain on backwards! and he never had a clue.
You are fearful and prideful so you won't listen to anything other than what you think is right, based on other conversations we have had with you in past. And because of that you think you have the right to dispel anything anyone says that is contrary to your ideas and call what you say as gospel.
Many of us work safe fast and efficient up here.
You are just afraid of some of our techniques and probably would never accept them or change your ways.
.... that is why you would never make it up here as stated before.

 

[bitzer]

Reggie likes to quote government publications.

I had forgotten that it's winter down there and the deciduous trees wouldn't have leaves. The thing is no matter what type of tree and where in the world it is the same general mechanics apply. How those mechanics are applied to the species, state of the tree, size, and situation is what makes the difference. How you employ the techniques and when determines the outcome. A successful outcome can only be gained through experience and often a little luck. In Jack's (hotsaws101) words, " by God's grace," would replace the luck. When I first started watching his videos years ago I thought it was kind of goofy. The more time I spend in the woods the more it rings true. I have a lot of respect for guys like him. Those that have cut the "big" trees for decades and still do. They have figured something out that is not in a publication.

 

[northmanlogging]

Hmmm. Here's a no-shock wedge idea. No endorsement, just an interesting approach. Lighter but without the lift of a bottle jack. Would it grip in dense wood?

wes spur and a few other folks carry these baileys maybe? taint cheap though

 

[Skeans]

wes spur and a few other folks carry these baileys maybe? taint cheap though

I'd bet you money it'd sink in a good sized fir real fast.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[northmanlogging]

Appreciate all the feedback both positive and negative.
The tree wasn't dead, a burnt out hazard yes but definitely not dead.
The tree fell the intended direction, due to the large hollowed out section there wasn't enough room to skarf/notch it like normal and place a back cut, this is where my problem was with getting the tree to tip over.

While I realise what I did is probably dangerous, it was our only option at the time, given how far we were from anywhere and the equipment we had on hand.
If none of us took risks in life we wouldn't have evolved the way that we have, it was a calculated risk that I was comfortable with

its good to see that ya at least recognize the risk... its yer life etc. just rather not hear about someone getting killed because they wanted to watch it go. if ya like watchin em hit the ground so much get someone else to cut it, besides adreniline seems to shut out noise and really thats the best part that and the ground shakin...

 

[northmanlogging]

I'd bet you money it'd sink in a good sized fir real fast.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

ya i dont think they have the girth to hold a big tree up whole thing is only like 5" long, climber guys like em cause seingin an axe while tied to a tree is less then fun.

 

[Westboastfaller]

Big old dead stags aren't the ones to learn on by yourself, they are the ones that only really experienced fallers should tackle, the worst thing about them is that limbs can fall out if the top of them at anytime, that's why you never ever drive wedges into them.
Crankski

I can agree with most of it there. Certainly don't "DRIVE a single wedge hard with some species but use safe wedging practices. Falling branches isn't the "worst thing about them" Falling branches is no joke I agree and will break you down to your pelvis like nothing or worse. Often branches will come out from between green trees and in the coast here we hang in the cut for about 3 to 6 seconds after the tree starts to lift. You have to be looking up as the canopy opens. Limb tied trees are felled together
These ones you speak of with branches may not all be Dangour tree's? (DT) There is a difference between a snag and a DT, A snag isn't necessary a dangerous tree as It was pointed out.. A 'DT' isn't necessary a DT to the faller either as it can be classified a DT by location, It may be a green tree and classified by lean. All dead tree's are certainly not dangerous. Healthy trees that were recently killed from bugs and the same with recent light fire scorch.
20 years after a burn the trees are hard like rock, have been my experience, it's the roots system that makes them all DT. Just look at your site overview and you will see blow down up to your waist. It's not the wedging of these tree's you may be falling or the roots uplifting that is the concern but others uplifting from the disturbance.
NOT falling branches but the bigger concern is the tree folding from the force of a wedge. With certain species like white snags here in the PNW, Some will say never wedge them? At least don't do it wrong. It's just a dangerous game and you only have to be wrong once. A faller got killed on a small crew I was on in July from wedging a balam (Grand fir) You talk about your plump Bob so often but tree's have an obvious lean up a hill quite a ways and gravity will suck them down still. Another example I found in north BC and AB I pick direction over lean and branch weight with in reason. If I possible can start from the east when I will cut them for north east to a south east direction even when it looks like a west lean and 8 out of 10 of the ones that seem obvious west will go to the 'east' I would take my experience over your plumb bob at $100 a tree and for every $200 i pay you, you will be paying me $800 I believe. I know you will find that pretty Chucky soup but it's not up for debate with you.
It is not only the best things I have learnt about lean but one of the best things I have learnt about falling. Anyway that faller had a hole at the top of the hill and likely believed the snag was leaning for the flat area above the hill. The tree was getting pull from the hill and it sat back on his saw as we could see teeth marks on the butt as well wedge marks. He must have been so sure it was going to go up the top of the hill on to the flat area that he didn't even put a wedge in it. Don't bet against the pull of the hill.
Now he's wedging from the low side with branches in his vision from the last two cedar tree's just off to his left. Vision impaired? Working from the low side? how was his safety trail? Was he alternating at least two wedges? Was he waiting for the force to disperse between hits with a muff up? Did he slip or trip? Could he have gotten his spare saw as he was close to the road and redirected it down? Was he being complacent and careless? Could he have fell the three together down the hill even if it meant wedging the DT a little? Probably but he did what Worksafe BC wants us to do and that's fall it as soon as you have a sizeable hole to do so. Obviously got himself in a pickle when it sat back. Deaths of others become my experience. I use wedges for holding ugly DT together or from pinching if I don't cut them up right to begin with, it's like bucking, you have to feel for the pressure on big snags. When you can fall large dia ugly snags without wedges then you're loggin' as for wedging for lean? One faller with a lot more experience than me said over soup right after this accident that he will never wedge a white wood snag. I don't know how he does it but when you stand in some of this terrain here you have to think like you are cemented in concrete because that's the way it feels. Getting away from a large falling top at times seems like bad odds. You don't even have
to be wedging white snags to get it from a top. Never stop the forward sage by repositioning your falling Dogs or you will snap that top back at you. Under bar sized trees, set your dogs in the corner of the mouth and don't stop cutting. Not a tree that you want to run out of gas on.

 

[Westboastfaller]

View attachment 519439
I hope I don't ever get as alive as that tree was when you fell it, although I know inevitable in the end. You did survive but you wouldn't want to repeat it too often & test your luck!
Natinski

^^^ I guess I gave this post a like based on the last sentence only. I'm not so sure what is "inevitable in the end"? Although I do agree with most of the safe work procedures I though it was odd in your other post that the biggest concern with wedging was the possibility of dislodging branches. I see that's what was said in the falling procedures you posted. You are Bull shitting for entertainment..haha

 

[Bwildered]

You're making a stink about one tree. Every faller has walked away from a tree before so your point is worthless. Usually they find another way to get it down. The issue is you are telling people never to put a wedge in a dead tree and smack it. And now you quote some publication that recommends the same thing, but does not say "never" and its a government publication at that, which is based of fear of lawsuit so that again is worthless. I have been in the government training for chainsaw safety up here. I had to relearn just about everything when I went into logging. Their methods are designed around safety for the most inept, accident prone, underqualified, lack of common sense people out there so they don't kill themselves.
Even after that training, I watched a guy on our crew cut completely through a railroad tie with the chain on backwards! and he never had a clue.
You are fearful and prideful so you won't listen to anything other than what you think is right, based on other conversations we have had with you in past. And because of that you think you have the right to dispel anything anyone says that is contrary to your ideas and call what you say as gospel.
Many of us work safe fast and efficient up here.
You are just afraid of some of our techniques and probably would never accept them or change your ways.
.... that is why you would never make it up here as stated before.

It's just common sense to know it's a dangerous practice, but it seems common sense isn't that common.
Slashinski

 

[Bwildered]

^^^ I guess I gave this post a like based on the last sentence only. I'm not so sure what is "inevitable in the end"? Although I do agree with most of the safe work procedures I though it was odd in your other post that the biggest concern with wedging was the possibility of dislodging branches. I see that's what was said in the falling procedures you posted. You are Bull ******** for entertainment..haha

That one went over your head completely, the tree was as dead as a dodo!
Chinski

 

[Bwildered]

Reggie likes to quote government publications.

I had forgotten that it's winter down there and the deciduous trees wouldn't have leaves. The thing is no matter what type of tree and where in the world it is the same general mechanics apply. How those mechanics are applied to the species, state of the tree, size, and situation is what makes the difference. How you employ the techniques and when determines the outcome. A successful outcome can only be gained through experience and often a little luck. In Jack's (hotsaws101) words, " by God's grace," would replace the luck. When I first started watching his videos years ago I thought it was kind of goofy. The more time I spend in the woods the more it rings true. I have a lot of respect for guys like him. Those that have cut the "big" trees for decades and still do. They have figured something out that is not in a publication.

By gods grace, Eucalyptus aren't deciduous, when there's no leaves on them their dead & when bits & pieces fall off them when falling then are thrown through the air when they land of they've been dead for a while, I lost a fair bit of respect for mr hotsaws when he was falling alongside a open road or highway & didn't do the right thing, he shouldn't be let loose that close to civilisation with that much intelligence.
Sanksi

 

[bitzer]

By gods grace, Eucalyptus aren't deciduous, when there's no leaves on them their dead & when bits & pieces fall off them when falling then are thrown through the air when they land of they've been dead for a while, I lost a fair bit of respect for mr hotsaws when he was falling alongside a open road or highway & didn't do the right thing, he shouldn't be let loose that close to civilisation with that much intelligence.
Sanksi

Scheffa said the tree wasn't dead so I took his word for it. I've cut my share of dead wood. I spent two months last winter on oak wilt killed trees. Some dead for 6 or 7 years. I'm not sure you really know what it takes. Just a curiosity what did Jack do wrong? Cut too close to the road without a cable in or machine behind?

 

[KiwiBro]

wes spur and a few other folks carry these baileys maybe? taint cheap though

Do you know if they work outside a youtube environment?

 

[bnmc98]

It's just common sense to know it's a dangerous practice, but it seems common sense isn't that common.
Slashinski

Exactly! That is why common sense is used during dangerous things we do. The avoiding of dangerous situations does not indicate common sense, but rather maybe the presence of fear. And believe me, fear and wisdom are two entirely different entities.
Wisdom tells you when to hit a wedge in a dead tree and when not to. Fear tells you to never do it.
It's a dangerous profession, end of story.

 

[northmanlogging]

Do you know if they work outside a youtube environment?

never used one myself, but the folks on the arborist101 side like em.

 

[northmanlogging]

this goes here, and is more pertinent then ever, posted this afternoon, so events described took place last monday.

 

[rwoods]

Life cut short at only 31 years. Sad and sobering. Thanks, NM for posting this. Ron

 

[Westboastfaller]

Here is a few pics of the last block I just finished cutting yesterday. pretty straight forward falling. Hemlock (white wood) & Balsam (Grand fir) or as it's often grouped together on our bucking cards as Hem-Bal. Not a lot of saplings to cut or thick brush just a bit of Devi's club and blueberries. The wood wasn't great around here but not to many snags but just a bit mature for this area in places.
Easy going for the money. Next week I will be on Kennedy Island back in the ****. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.
These ones pictured are only a little bigger than my 36" bar with the Swanson cuts. Backbar off the whiskers so nobody falls on them. A faller cut his femoral artery and bleed out on the hill a while ago.
Balsam Danger tree (DT) no sign of heart rot conks. Perfectly healthy in the outside. Leaning up hill so I cleared out for the hole it was leaning hard to. It's actually to the right of the trees from a lookers view. I debated about using the bigger one that I lightly brushed up for a pusher tree. But I didn't want to slam my logs over the blow down if I could have avoided. would have worked fine as I use a compression snap/ drop snap cut to set them up and not wedges which I'm supposed to use. I always pop a muff as I walk back to my bullet tree. best way I find is bore as close to the back of the tree as possible then backbar to set your trigger wood. Cut forward to your hing and then
cut about 5" below your back cut deep enough so when the pusher tree hits it it will break the vertical holding wood on impact. I leave about an 1" and a bit on a uniform shape tree. *For solid wood only.
If it's a small tree I just undercut and a 6"lower back cut.