Falling Technique

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Tree Feller

J &J Tree Service
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
420
Reaction score
339
Location
North Carolina
I dont have any pics, but we were up in Ohio this past weekend on a hunting trip and they were logging part of the property we hunt on. i was looking at some of the stumps and butt cuts and was a little confused. it appears they are using a short bar because they were cutting from two sides most of the time. It looked as if they were using a normal notch on the face. But the hinge did not go across the stump. It was if they left a post on one side only. i understand the concept of boreing out the center which leaves a post on each side that acts like a hinge, but this was not the case it was only on one side??? The group of loggers was select cutting not clear cutting. Mostly walnut, popular and other large trees. The face cuts where very shallow with most looking like a dutchman??? Did they cut like this to prevent splitting the tree or the swing ot roll it through standing timber? Could some one with some more expierance give me some insite on this? Thanks for the help! I live in NC and i dont see many trees cut like this. It was every tree they cut? :confused:
 
It's common here to cut down to a very small hinge or sometimes almost no hinge at all when logging high value wood to prevent damage to the butt log. As long as you're in a spot where you don't have to worry to much about exactly where the tree goes it's ok. Once the tree starts to go you keep cutting while its in its first part of the fall. Can be dangerous if not done correctly but what isn't in our industry? Could also be somebody didn't know what they were doing. How big were the "posts" they left?
 
Sounds like stump jumping shenanigans. A lot of good ole boys cut that way. It's basicly bucking trees right off the stump. Dosent really pull wood if done right, but directional control is non existent. I'm not gonna lie, il jump one off the stump so it can ride freely through the canopy. Beats ####ing around trying to knock down something sstill on the hinge and stuck as hell...
 
Not sure what you mean about the Dutchman comment on the face cut -- an actual dutchman would be bad, and could split the butt wide open. Nobody does that intentionally. Was it perhaps a block-out face cut with a snipe on the bottom? Or a Humbolt with a kicker?
 
A dutchman can be used to get the tree to roll a little as it's coming down while still on the stump. I've used them on very slight leaning trees that needed to go maybe 10-15° off of lean. I wouldn't want to try some of the ultra soft dutchman that the guy on youtube does in a brittle hard wood.
 
OP: if you could put up some pics of the stumps in question, we'd be able to tell you more. It sounds like the cutters are either really good or really dangerous. There's a lot of nuance that can be read from a stump.
 
Lots of old school choppers cut that way. They were never "taught" the newer book learned ways.
A guy I know cuts almost every single tree like that. And he cuts more wood than any 3 other guys I know combined. I swear, he cuts one and four will fall.
 
Sounds like stump jumping shenanigans. A lot of good ole boys cut that way. It's basicly bucking trees right off the stump. Dosent really pull wood if done right, but directional control is non existent. I'm not gonna lie, il jump one off the stump so it can ride freely through the canopy. Beats ####ing around trying to knock down something sstill on the hinge and stuck as hell...

Sure you have directional control. . . For as long as needed anyway.
 
I dont have any pics, but we were up in Ohio this past weekend on a hunting trip and they were logging part of the property we hunt on. i was looking at some of the stumps and butt cuts and was a little confused. it appears they are using a short bar because they were cutting from two sides most of the time. It looked as if they were using a normal notch on the face. But the hinge did not go across the stump. It was if they left a post on one side only. i understand the concept of boreing out the center which leaves a post on each side that acts like a hinge, but this was not the case it was only on one side??? The group of loggers was select cutting not clear cutting. Mostly walnut, popular and other large trees. The face cuts where very shallow with most looking like a dutchman??? Did they cut like this to prevent splitting the tree or the swing ot roll it through standing timber? Could some one with some more expierance give me some insite on this? Thanks for the help! I live in NC and i dont see many trees cut like this. It was every tree they cut? :confused:

I'm not sure if I have a good visualization, but could it be that they were thinning the hinge as it fell and due to the short bar they could only reach half of it? Ron
 
Sure you have directional control. . . For as long as needed anyway.

Hahaha. That made me think of something that happened a long time ago.
One of the "big bosses" asked my saw boss; "Who do you have that's a good directional faller?"
My saw boss answered; "Andy." I stuck my chest out and swelled up about 2 seconds too soon, cuz then he said; "Yep, where ever it's leanin' that's where it's falling. I've never seen him miss." :laugh:

I think that was one of the things that gave me some incentive to try and learn to do it right.

Andy
 
OP: if you could put up some pics of the stumps in question, we'd be able to tell you more. It sounds like the cutters are either really good or really dangerous. There's a lot of nuance that can be read from a stump.

Its the latter. Some folks are reading too much in to this, giving a bit too much credit. It is an old method that will get the tree on the ground with little chance of butt log breakage or fiber pull. It does nothing for directional control or preventing the butt from coming back at the faller, but it is another example of boring pre- GOL existance, this is biblical stuff.

Basically, cut in as far as you can on the side you want the tree to go (think horizontal cut of face), pull out and take a chip out, creatinga face with about 6" of kerf bypass on the horixontal. Bore out the heart. Bore out the bad (under)side. Bore out the good side. release. leaves 2 legs on either side that would count as a hinge, no matter how minimal, but that is negated by the massive kerf bypass on the face. Don't cut like this.

Dutchmans and variations work great on hardwoods as long as you are choosing the right stems and can keep up with it safely as it starts to go.
 
Read somewhere that dutch mans started because the faller was lazy "Those damn dutchmen never face the tree up right" I've also heard of two types of dutching that I know of 1: and the more common method of not connecting the undercut with yer gun cut cleanly hopefully pushing the tree a little away from the dutch, 2: realizing you gunned it badly and taking a chunk of the block left over from facing it and pounding it into yer face cut. Both methods work, but on every stump? Sounds like someone is just plain lazy, inexperienced, or in a big dam hurry. As far as leaving a little fiber on one side that happens when yer using a bar that's to short for the wood yer cutting, getting all excitable and cutting all yer holding wood on the first side is a good way to park a tree in the wrong place, like on top of your head
 
Read somewhere that dutch mans started because the faller was lazy "Those damn dutchmen never face the tree up right" I've also heard of two types of dutching that I know of 1: and the more common method of not connecting the undercut with yer gun cut cleanly hopefully pushing the tree a little away from the dutch, 2: realizing you gunned it badly and taking a chunk of the block left over from facing it and pounding it into yer face cut. Both methods work, but on every stump? Sounds like someone is just plain lazy, inexperienced, or in a big dam hurry. As far as leaving a little fiber on one side that happens when yer using a bar that's to short for the wood yer cutting, getting all excitable and cutting all yer holding wood on the first side is a good way to park a tree in the wrong place, like on top of your head

I've only heard of that first method being called a dutchman, but to my mind it acts more like a snipe... and a bad one at that!

The soft dutchman (also called a kerf dutchman) style is used with leaners to get them around a little futher than you normal might without the hinge side snapping, but it's unpredictable and ought to only be used for convenience. It acts in the same way as an offset snipe, but with a slower action.

You start with a standard humblodt, but the fance angle needs to be fairly shallow or the tree will have too much weight in motion and you'll get no swing effect. There's a sweet spot for maximum effectiveness that you need to experiment with in your local wood to get right. Then you start cutting a series of kerfs into one side of the undercut. The kerfs are cut level. They're cut deeply into one side, and not at all in the other. You make the back cut, but try to leave more holding wood on the side that has the kerfs, and less on the un cut side. The tree will swing to the side that has the kerfs cut. It's a bit counterintuitive.

The way it works, is that the face starts closing. As the face closes up, all those kerfs start compressing, but it's gradual and progressive, or soft. Not like an offset snipe that would try to kick it all at once. The solid side of the undercut starts putting pressure on the gun, so the tree starts swinging towards the kerf side. How many kerfs, how deep, and how far apart varies a lot by tree size and species, and how far you need to swing it. At some point, the hinge will tear out on the un kerfed side.... This is a good thing. If the kerf side of the hinge snaps first you wont get much swing. As that hinge lets go, it will roll and swing a little further.

It's a very seat of the pants method. The results are unpredictable, but it's great if you need to get a tree 'somwehere over there' when that place is far from where you could drop it by standard methods. I don't use it often, but I've had some luck with it when I've got to swing a tree through a bunch of others and miss canopys at certain times on the way down.

Shaun
 
I tried to attach a drawing of the stumps but not sure if it worked. To address some of the questions, the post where around 6" long and 1 to 2" thick. As far as the dutchman goes I ment they let the saw kerf go beyond where the two face cuts met? I coul be wrong as far as what that is really called? So i was correct in think they cut like this to save the wood. Looks to me as was posted before you have very little contol doing this way. (by only leaving one post on one side). I understand leaving two post act just like a normal hindge. I do recall the stumps looking very sloppy in regards to the face cuts and notches. But i will give them credit the stumps was the lowest i had ever seen. No more than 3 to 4 inches high. I dont for see my self trying this styl for my needs. Thanks for all the input and sorry no pics, i'm 5 hours south of the location. Any more thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
 
Sounds like boys in a hurry with short bars trying to keep their butts clean. Thats it, thats all. Pretty much how everyone cuts up here.

Oh yeah, no one ever uses dutchmans intentionally. No one. That would be dangerous. Yes, I'm an #######.


attachment.php


attachment.php


attachment.php


attachment.php


attachment.php


Its just amazing. Out of the 5000bf or so I cut every morning I'll bet 3500 of it gets on the ground with a dutchman, but I don't have any nice, super clean stump pics of just a straight up, cut the entire far side off from the face before the back-cut shots. You know, the usual. Had some damn nice speed dutches on some reds yesterday. Also a nice wide face with a snipe, a heart nip, and a full face dutch does wonders for sailing through standing timber without losing all control of cutting them off the stump. They will hit the lay nine times out of ten if done right and will roll right through for you. Think SELECT cut. Almost too select sometimes.
View attachment 255626
View attachment 255627
View attachment 255628
View attachment 255629
View attachment 255630
 
I've only heard of that first method being called a dutchman, but to my mind it acts more like a snipe... and a bad one at that!

The soft dutchman (also called a kerf dutchman) style is used with leaners to get them around a little futher than you normal might without the hinge side snapping, but it's unpredictable and ought to only be used for convenience. It acts in the same way as an offset snipe, but with a slower action.

You start with a standard humblodt, but the fance angle needs to be fairly shallow or the tree will have too much weight in motion and you'll get no swing effect. There's a sweet spot for maximum effectiveness that you need to experiment with in your local wood to get right. Then you start cutting a series of kerfs into one side of the undercut. The kerfs are cut level. They're cut deeply into one side, and not at all in the other. You make the back cut, but try to leave more holding wood on the side that has the kerfs, and less on the un cut side. The tree will swing to the side that has the kerfs cut. It's a bit counterintuitive.

The way it works, is that the face starts closing. As the face closes up, all those kerfs start compressing, but it's gradual and progressive, or soft. Not like an offset snipe that would try to kick it all at once. The solid side of the undercut starts putting pressure on the gun, so the tree starts swinging towards the kerf side. How many kerfs, how deep, and how far apart varies a lot by tree size and species, and how far you need to swing it. At some point, the hinge will tear out on the un kerfed side.... This is a good thing. If the kerf side of the hinge snaps first you wont get much swing. As that hinge lets go, it will roll and swing a little further.

It's a very seat of the pants method. The results are unpredictable, but it's great if you need to get a tree 'somwehere over there' when that place is far from where you could drop it by standard methods. I don't use it often, but I've had some luck with it when I've got to swing a tree through a bunch of others and miss canopys at certain times on the way down.

Shaun

The far side needs to be cut off and often sits on your bar as you watch the top. Thats the whole point. Movement. Watching the top is key. You need to cut at the right time. Leave more holding wood than you think you need. You may need it. You also need a lot of space for the swing, brushing of limbs will kill the movement and there you sit. Species is definetly a factor in holdability. Sometimes you have to cut it off before it goes too far. Lots of play involved with this one and for me rarely used in typical timber falling operations. It has its time and place, but a lot of stump time needs to be put in to make it work right.
 
Sounds like boys in a hurry with short bars trying to keep their butts clean. Thats it, thats all. Pretty much how everyone cuts up here.

Oh yeah, no one ever uses dutchmans intentionally. No one. That would be dangerous. Yes, I'm an #######.


attachment.php


attachment.php


attachment.php


attachment.php


attachment.php


Its just amazing. Out of the 5000bf or so I cut every morning I'll bet 3500 of it gets on the ground with a dutchman, but I don't have any nice, super clean stump pics of just a straight up, cut the entire far side off from the face before the back-cut shots. You know, the usual. Had some damn nice speed dutches on some reds yesterday. Also a nice wide face with a snipe, a heart nip, and a full face dutch does wonders for sailing through standing timber without losing all control of cutting them off the stump. They will hit the lay nine times out of ten if done right and will roll right through for you. Think SELECT cut. Almost too select sometimes.
View attachment 255626
View attachment 255627
View attachment 255628
View attachment 255629
View attachment 255630



EXACTLY what they where doing! The stumps i saw looked exactly like you show in the pics. So its a quick and dirty way to get the timber on the ground to save bucking time and fall the trees through standing timber? Dont get me wrong i'm NOT knocking these guys or anyone else that does this, i just wanted to know why! The guys where putting the timber on the ground and getting it out quick. So i guess its what ever works for you. it looks kinda dangerous to me but i dont fall timber everyday! i just like looking at other peoples work in hopes of picking up some pointers! You sa thats haw everyone does it up here so i assume your in the North??
 
EXACTLY what they where doing! The stumps i saw looked exactly like you show in the pics. So its a quick and dirty way to get the timber on the ground to save bucking time and fall the trees through standing timber? Dont get me wrong i'm NOT knocking these guys or anyone else that does this, i just wanted to know why! The guys where putting the timber on the ground and getting it out quick. So i guess its what ever works for you. it looks kinda dangerous to me but i dont fall timber everyday! i just like looking at other peoples work in hopes of picking up some pointers! You sa thats haw everyone does it up here so i assume your in the North??

I'm in Wisconsin and I know what type of cutting you are talking about. There is a reason for my stumps. The type I know you are talking about there is not. Fine line here maybe for those not making stumps everyday. Holding wood is left on one side or another to get the top of the tree to swing around. Its not just a matter of bucking it off the stump in a hurry to save the wood. The art of timber falling versus cutting timber. Intentionally leaving or removing wood in one place or another in order to achieve an anticipated result. Not short bar boring/cutting off the stump type crap. Although without seeing the stumps in question I can't really say for sure. Maybe they are legit or maybe mine are just ####! The thing is my stumps are not all like that. Its what you need the tree to do. I guess the point here is intentional or unintentional stump work. It probably sounds pretentious to some, but there is an art to laying out timber and doing it effciently. I'm not saying I'm there by any means, but I'm always working at it.

attachment.php


attachment.php


attachment.php


attachment.php

View attachment 255642
View attachment 255643
View attachment 255644
View attachment 255645


PS: Short bars are for weekend firewood hacks!
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top