Fast decents on 1/2" rope

[BVD]

Hey guys,

After I spend all that time getting up into a tree, I want to have some fun on the way down. Right now I take a few extra seconds to setup a figure 8 descender (pirana) so I can step up the speed without destroying my hitch line. But the twists that get into the climbing rope are driving me nuts.

I've looked for alternatives to the figure 8 like the ATC, Kong Robot, petzl reverso, grigri, etc. but they all max out at 11 - 12mm line. I can't find anything short of a ID that will work.

Does anyone know of a descender that costs less than the ID, doesn't twist the climbing line and still works on 1/2" rope?

Thanks,

 

[canopyboy]

You can just descend on your hitch, some twist your rope more than others. Get a high-temp hitch cord and you can burn down pretty fast. But if you really want a mechanical descender that doesn't twist for larger rope, the ID is probably what you're looking for.

These are cheap and don't induce much twist. But far from ideal. I usually have one in my line mug as an emergency measure. Heck, you can just change the way you use your 8 and accomplish the same thing.

This works great, but is a lot of metal to haul around up in the tree with. Worth it though on long SRT descents.

Finally, there's a guy named Storrick who has catalogued and described almost every descent device ever made. Give his site a little tour: http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/RappelDevices.shtml

 

[indiansprings]

At Ranger and Air Assualt schools we just used the regular non- locking carabiner's. Nothing fancy, zip down as fast as your heart desires.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

At Ranger and Air Assualt schools we just used the regular non- locking carabiner's. Nothing fancy, zip down as fast as your heart desires.

You probably used a Munter hitch, which is rope-on-rope friction. Kinda rough on the climbing line. I do this on removals with the rigging line (contrary to ANSI Z-133) when i cannot get a decent tie in for my climbing line.

I'll agree with the Rack option for best device:cost, the Petzl iD is probably the very best descending device, but it is too spendy for me.

$167 is the best price I have ever seen, the range on these things is drastic, you gotta shop around

http://www.google.com/products?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&q=petzl+id+descender&scoring=p

 

[Tree Machine]

Hey, thanks Canopyboy for those links. Storrick's collection is an amazing place. The answer to BVD's question may be in that collection.

The question is

After I spend all that time getting up into a tree, I want to have some fun on the way down. Right now I take a few extra seconds to setup a figure 8 descender (pirana) so I can step up the speed without destroying my hitch line.

It sounds like you're climbing 2:1 and just replacing the friction hitch with a friction device. 2:1 is the world that Arborists live in. 2:1 is not really conducive to doing highly controlled, high speed descents. The inherent nature of the 2:1 system does other things well, though.

After I spend all that time getting up into a tree,

2:1 is a much slower and laborious on the way up. 2:1 is work; body thrusting, doing horizontal pullups, advancing hitch (or device), tending slack. 2:1 does NOT do footlocking well because the 2:1 'mechanical advantage' just means two feet of rope pulled through the hitch (or device) only gets you ONE foot of vertical advancement. This works in reverse, too.

On the down you have two feet of rope cruising through your Pirhana though you only descend half that. here are frictional additions up at the tie-in point and this gift varies, complicating your desired rapid descent. That's 2:1. Slow on the way up and not real fast on the way down just because of the physics of it. Welcome to 2:1. It is what it is. It works. Accept the limitations of it, and if you want to lend yourself the final blow against speedy descents, stick with that 13 mm line.

Speedy descents aren't necessary.

 

[Tree Machine]

the Petzl iD is probably the very best descending device

The petzl ID can allow only one rope to pass through it. As a device this is limiting. If a device automatically allows only two of the three rope techniques, in my book, it's not worth having. This is not to say the device is no-good, the device is great in doing what it does.

I've looked for alternatives to the figure 8 like the ATC, Kong Robot, petzl reverso, grigri, etc. but they all max out at 11 - 12mm line.

The robot will allow you fast descents and you can go all three ways. Not so expensive. You can use 13 mm line. Good soft lock, no intrinsic hardlock, that is, no 'antipanic function'. You can descend 2:1 doubled, 1:1 doubled and SRT. The latter two you can descend fast, SRT you're goood to go with the 13 mm line, but 1:1 doubled, you really want to be on an 11 mm line to appreciate the freedom and speed of the spectrum of tree climbing, but particularly with 1:1 doubled. 11 mm good. Much advantage.

Below is a device that does 2:1 doubled rope descent, 1:1 doubled rope descent and SRT. It has intrtinsic hardlock that can be use in any of the three rope techniques. It is light. Control is joyous. Work-positioning is accurate and precise. The problem is, this device does not exist. You can see it, but it this is a working prototype built around a Petzl Verso.

 

[Tree Machine]

It has possibilities, light, fast, easy, safe. Who knows what it would cost?

 

[treemandan]

The petzl ID can allow only one rope to pass through it. As a device this is limiting. If a device automatically allows only two of the three rope techniques, in my book, it's not worth having. This is not to say the device is no-good, the device is great in doing what it does.




The robot will allow you fast descents and you can go all three ways. Not so expensive. You can use 13 mm line. Good soft lock, no intrinsic hardlock, that is, no 'antipanic function'. You can descend 2:1 doubled, 1:1 doubled and SRT. The latter two you can descend fast, SRT you're goood to go with the 13 mm line, but 1:1 doubled, you really want to be on an 11 mm line to appreciate the freedom and speed of the spectrum of tree climbing, but particularly with 1:1 doubled. 11 mm good. Much advantage.

Below is a device that does 2:1 doubled rope descent, 1:1 doubled rope descent and SRT. It has intrtinsic hardlock that can be use in any of the three rope techniques. It is light. Control is joyous. Work-positioning is accurate and precise. The problem is, this device does not exist. You can see it, but it this is a working prototype built around a Petzl Verso.

Well it doesn't look as bad as it ,umm, looks. I swear they ought to ban JB WELD.

 

[Tree Machine]

fast descents

There's about a hundred ways to employ a tube device. Dr. Storrick's site shows a couple entire boards of these types of devices. I've studied these boards on many occasions in looking for the ideal, all-around arborist descent device.

It does not exist at this time.

The most basic of this sort of device would be two links of chain welded together, side-by-side. Size them so a bight of 13 mm rope will fit through.
Very crude, but short of the fact that there is no intrinsic soft lock nor hard lock, it does allow use of all three rope techniques. Here is a picture of those chain links, taken up to the next level of sophistication and design. Then this is a step up from that.

 

[Tree Machine]

Well it doesn't look as bad as it ,umm, looks. I swear they ought to ban JB WELD.

JB Weld is kids stuff. It only does well what it does well.
M1 does everything. Cures to hard rubber with 300 psi bonding power.

Stainless steel and ethicone. It just has to hold up for a hundred or so climbs, and if it pays its rent, then one can be built that is TIG welded.

 

[Tree Machine]

I did all the gap filling with white. It acts also as a bonding agent for the whipping, which is 1.75 mm Zing-It.

After the whipping and termination was complete, I used black ethicone to smooth it over.

Different, huh?

 

[BVD]

Thanks for all the replys guys. I had a lot of fun following those links and looking at all the different descenders people have used over the years.

Tree Machine, I think you just made my day with your comment about the Robot. It and the petzl reverso were the two I really wanted to try out. But all the shops describe the robot as working on 12mm line not 12.5 mm or 1/2". If it will work all the way up to 13mm then I'm sold.

I was also meaning to start trying the f8 system that has been talked about especially after seeing the fast descents that those guys were doing! Buying the robot should help me speed things up a bit now and play with f8.

Thanks

 

[D Mc]

The Unicender is more money than you want to spend. But it will also do more than any device discussed so far. It will ascend and descend, work a 2 to 1 system, work a 1 to 1 system, works on 11 mm to 13 mm and is capable of very fast descents.

For tree work, I don't believe you are going to find anything else as versatile and available.

Dave

http://www.thompsontreetools.com/product.html

 

[Tree Machine]

The unicender is good option. Well-engineered piece. It will allow you to ascend, and we'll leave it at that. For me, I want the ascent to be as effortless as possible, so I cheat and use a device that gives indescribable advantages on the way up. Ascent, for me, has to be 1:1, no friction hitches for the ascent, no 2:1. 1:1 is twice as efficient and a single handled, dual ascender, the double redundant safety units, mmmmm, I really do feel like I'm cheating, but this is how I make a living and the more swiftly it all goes, the better we all do.




There's so many ways to handle friction. Of all the descenders ever built since the beginning of mankind every one of them is hanging on one of Gary Storrick's boards. However, the ideal descender for tree care / work positioning, I'm completely convinced, has not been invented yet by anyone, from any aerial discipline. How can I say this? It's because no one has asked so much of a descent device, ever before.

We want a descender that can go DdRT, DbRT and SRT, has intrinsic soft and hard lockoff. Man makes fricking space shuttles, I know we can do this. And I want it to be a descender, something that descends really well and tends slack with ease while climbing about and allows precision control in work positioning.







Now, going down a rope fast, below is a method that does not put a twist in the rope, & can be used with all three rope methods. I don't know what this is called, but I think it's called a military wrap, please correct me if that's wrong.
This picture shows it doing doubled static (DbRT) on 1/2" Stable Braid. I used to climb on that way back long ago and really liked it. I don't like bouncy ropes. I would retire it to rigging duties, which is what it is for anyway. For the last 4 years now, 11 mm. Cheat using tactical gear, cheat using lighter, smaller lines, cheat by utilizing 1:1 doubled and single rope techniques, interchangably, professional climbers should be able to tap into all of this.

Tree climbers are still working in the dark ages. A renaissance has yet to come.

The pictures below, this is ugly stuff. Don't do this, even if it works. Dang dangerous. Sort of.

This would be an example of a combo soft lock, hard lock. Super simple. Clip a small locklng biner around all 4 lines, hands-free. Feed line up to work-position down.

 

[D Mc]

The unicender is good option. Well-engineered piece. It will allow you to ascend, and we'll leave it at that. For me, I want the ascent to be as effortless as possible, so I cheat and use a device that gives indescribable advantages on the way up. Ascent, for me, has to be 1:1, no friction hitches for the ascent, no 2:1. 1:1 is twice as efficient and a single handled, dual ascender, the double redundant safety units, mmmmm, I really do feel like I'm cheating, but this is how I make a living and the more swiftly it all goes, the better we all do.

TM, I, too, make my living by climbing trees and, therefore, interested in your very well-informed opinion.

Would I be right in assuming you have used the Uni in actual production climbing? It took me awhile to gain the confidence and skills needed for efficient movement with the Uni but with these gained do not find it lacking in any way. Very fast descents or slow downward adjustments are easily accomplished in both 2:1 or 1:1 on a toothless cam design proven to not damage the rope in the event a slip or fall. Ascents are frictionless in 1:1 and require no back-up hitch to foot lock so there is no transition between upward and downward movement.

And as said, it will work from 11 mm to 13 mm. It also does 2:1 DdRT which is the most common and easily transitioned for tree workers.

Dave

 

[Tree Machine]

TM, I, too, make my living by climbing trees and, therefore, interested in your very well-informed opinion.

Trust me, an opinion is all that it is.


To start clear, I don't subscribe to the seriously ingrained need to have the system go instantly both up and down. That system, at best, does up fairly well and it does down fairly well.

My 'philosophy' , if you will, was to choose a device that does UP at the highest levels mankind has yet achieved, and choose another device that does DOWN and around exceedingly well, and that you let one do one, and another do the other, with a lot of crossover territory in between.
In other words, there's almost the entirety of the time in the crown where you are either going up or moving around & work positioning or down and around and work positioning. There is but a fraction of the job (generally speaking) where it is either ascent OR descent. Most time is spent where it could boil down to a coin toss to whether you stay on 'ascent/move around the crown' and work, or change over to 'descent/move around the crown' and work. Most times, I'll go with whatever mood I happen to be in in the moment. Either is an exceptional choice, again, generally speaking.

Once you get up into the crown, you can switch over to 'descent/move around the crown' mode only at the end of the job when you're gonna drop out. Or apply it whenever you need it, like when you have to drop through a natural fork way out to descend down onto a roof. At this point I would switch over to 'descent/move around the crown' mode, abseil down onto the roof, power blow the roof and eventually, slap 'ascent/move around the crown' back on and head on back up through that fork or whatever.

The down does down exceedingly well, and the up does up exceedingly well. Personally, I don't want one device that does it all. I want two devices that when used in an aerial system together compliment each other like a greater than the sum of the parts deal.

That's where I'm coming from.
Not that the Unicender is not a great tool, it is a great tool, it's magnificently engineered and time-tested and trusted as a unique and righteous piece of kit. But I can blow a major hole in my production climbing performance by accepting the unicender's one major drawback; it doesn't have a comfortable grip handle. That means my hands work the rope a lot, which they do anyway, don't get me wrong, but having an excellent ergo-grip handle is another way I 'cheat'. Dual ascenders allow the grip on 11 mm line to be ~22 mm across. Again, I cheat. Footlocking on 22 mm of twin line is astounding, I almost feel guilty that ascending is so amazingly easy, I almost feel like I'm cheating going up in 1:1 fashion..... but wait,.... 2:1 is just a matter of pulling one of the two ropes, one moves the other stays anchored, there's some cake and you can eat it too. You have options. Whatever works best in the moment you're in, able to accomodate ANYTHING while up in a tree.


Help, I'm falling off my soapbox.....


:angrysoapbox::angrysoapbox::angrysoapbox::angrysoapbox:



Please don't experience me as a know-it-all, because I don't. There are a variety of ways, as we've shown, to ascend, move about, work position and descend. All I want is a 1:1 system with safety as item #1 and easy slack tending as Item #2. So far my ascent has no slack tending at all, which is really nice (I cheat badly here), and the 'descender/move around the canopy' device, being 1:1 also, is half what a friction hitch system to begin with, so all we need is a device that passes up line through it with near-effortless ease, and controls friction confidently on the down.

This is just one guy's approach. I know how to use friction hitches, etc., but I shoot for the most efficient, effective means possible to win my daily matches against gravity. I cheat right down to the rubber palmed grip gloves. I've just refused the convention of 2:1 climbing and live in a 1:1 existence. I will seek every advantage I can and settle for nothing less because when a climbing schedule is 40-70 hours a week, you need every bit of help you can get.

I have been called a black sheep, even by my own family, it doesn't mean anyone's right or wrong, just different.

 

[treemandan]

So, we are looking for something with the ability to give a fast yet controlled and safe decent. I spent the last two night racking my brain and TA DA, I came up with this:

 

[Tree Machine]

That'll work.

This system has worked for multiple generations, since the manila rope age and who knows how far back in maritime years? and its application in tree care, since the beginning of tree care is documented and undisputed, and reigns most popular as the primary modus operundi in tree climbing.

2:1 system a la hitch is the champion, as far as user numbers.


I just really want something easier.

 

[treemandan]

That'll work.

This system has worked for multiple generations, since the manila rope age and who knows how far back in maritime years? and its application in tree care, since the beginning of tree care is documented and undisputed, and reigns most popular as the primary modus operundi in tree climbing.




I just really want something easier.

Easier? What could possibly be easier than that?

 

[Tree Machine]

Just the sheer amount of slack-tending makes it harder, right out of the blocks.


2:1 does not lend itself well to footlocking, which in 1:1 twin is your best friend. The advantage is strong.


I will climb on your system, but I have to adapt to suit it, and accept the limitations it imposes and not do a lot of the things I take for granted like redirects and climbing line snaking through the canopy wherever it best suits me.

There are moves that because of where the rope laces and drapes, are just not possible on a 2:1 system. That's fine you guys may not need to bust that particular move, but I'm serious, I can not be limited based on the configuration of my rope system and 2:1 all the time sort of boxes you into doing things the way that the system allows. There's nothing wrong at all with that, I just got really bored with 2:1 after about a year, went back to it for awhile when the VT came around and then the high-tech, high-temp eye-eyes, yummm, but it is still 2:1 and you assume a lot of efficiency penalty using it.

But it works. Always has, always will. Nothing simpler than a Blakes's.

I'll go back to my little world now and play with my imaginary climbing setup. ha ha.