Felling Concern

[Dan R Porter]

This may sound insane, but my boss today informed me that now with a larger crew, that I would focus more on the "Scientific" aspects of our tree maintenance, and the new guy would take over the labor part, such as felling. I felt very uncomfortable about this since I know how dangerous felling is and it is a science, not just a job anyone should pick up a saw and hack and slash. I voiced my opinion on the matter, and then voiced it again later. He said he understood my concern, and voiced he would watch him. He also, in a attempt to comfort me, claimed this "new guy" had taken a "Sthil safety course" in the past. (I took a course with the MFPA, so I was suspicious). Well later he informed me that 2 of the four trees had been felled. 2 pin-oaks around 12-14" dbh. (around 30' tall) after work I went to read the cuts on the stumps, and sure enough I was horrified. His wedge was about 55% into the tree (more than HALF) and was about 30 degrees (most conventional notches are around 45 degrees, I prefer a 70 Degree notch for longer control.) He made a back cut (I use bore cuts on trees this size and larger, depending on species of course.) and his back cut went all the way to the notch, so in other words, he had NO hinge. , zero, nada. I saw rivet marks, signs that it may have swung back and pinched, and an odd mark I had never seen before, like maybe a screwdriver used as a felling wedge, or maybe to remove a pinched saw.

So am I crazy, or is this taught somewhere not to use a hinge? These were textbook cuts, no leans, no weighted sides, and good wet wood.

So my question is, how far do I take this? As a Arborist I feel responsible to the fact that this can not go on. I am just in fear that my boss just thinks I do not trust anyone else to fell. Much less run a saw (This is the same place that told me I did not need chaps, so I had to purchase my own, and they look at me like I am some clown.)

Should I just plead my case and show him how to read the stump and explain my point of view, or am I out of place? Sure this is more of a ethics question, but I am sure many of the more experienced have been through such situations and can offer me some friendly advice. Thank you.


PS funny spell check doesn't recognize "Arborist"

 

[clearance]

Like you Dan, I am not a faller, its a big word, many here figure they are fallers but only a few people here are. "Wedge" cut is undercut to me, should be about 1/4, 1/3 the diameter of the tree, 45 degrees is o.k. The backcut, puzzled why you use bore cuts here instead of standard backcuts, I use bore cuts just for bucking except in very rare circumstances, very rare. Sounds pretty hard to get your saw bored into trees that small. Was the backcut stepped, that is higher than the undercut? This is important because it prevents the butt kicking back. As far as the holding wood being cut off, that is no good, maybe he "chased" the tree off the stump. Maybe explain to your boss that you have doubts as to this fellows abilities and are concerned for his wellbeing. You are not out of place, speak up, how would you feel if the guy gets wasted by a barberchair or something else that is preventable with training?

 

[Diesel JD]

Yeah, I say you should teach him the right way. I am not a faller, not even a pro, but have cut down my share of trees for firewood. One of the few that went the wrong way was caused by taking the notch too deep and not stepping it. Nobody got hurt and there wasn't any real property damage, but it is a serious mistake and if he's smart he'll listen to an experienced tree guy. There are only two ways to learn this right...the school of hard knocks or someone showing you. Like Clearance though, I wonder why you use a plunge cut for the back cut instead of a standard.

 

[Jim1NZ]

Hey Dan, sounds like your pretty onto it in the felling scene. Sounds like you should be the boss!

Don't let unsafe and unprofessional work mates drag you down into not wearing your PPE, you are setting an excellent example.

I think there are a couple of options, since you have tried talking to the boss how about trying to...

Try and train/advise the new employee on his felling to bring his skills up.

Re access your employment with the company.

Step back and do YOUR job assigned, let him learn the hard way. This is by far the worst option though, someone could end up getting hurt.

 

[Ekka]

Good on ya Jim.

I reckon similar, talk to the bozo boss if that dont work look for another job.

No shortage of dumb bosses in this job.

 

[treeseer]

Does your boss have a boss? this is more of a political problem than a technical one. Take pictures of the miscut stumps and mark them up to show what you just told us. Then use the materials from your mfpa course to demonstrate the difference, and the reasons why the mfpa way is more efficient and safe. Maybe you can find some ArborMaster material to back this up.

Once you have this stuff in hand, then is the time to bring it up to the boss. tell him you are glad to have the promotion, but would like to keep your company's tradition of safe felling. The big trick will be doing this without bruising either ego. Best solution may be to get the new guy to the mfpa course--how often are they held?

O and congrats on the promotion--tree felling may be an honorable skill, but it has no future. Tree care makes the future possible.

 

[Ekka]

O and congrats on the promotion--tree felling may be an honorable skill, but it has no future. Tree care makes the future possible.

Great point.

Opportunities abound for the educated and competant.

 

[buzz sawyer]

Dan, If you are this person's supervisor, I would definitely work with him. If not, I would document and report your findings in writing to the boss, as treeseer said and keep an eye out for another job. While I would hate for anyone to get hurt, some just want to learn the hard way. Your boss needs to see the financial side of it too. I don't know how big this company is, but I'm sure they would not want to get involved in a lawsuit for an injury or wrongful death.

 

[B-Edwards]

I sure wish i had people working for me who took things like this as seriously as you, i love your attitude and concern . Good luck with your problem there. And your not insane.

 

[Dan R Porter]

Well.....

I appreciate the comments, I spoke up today asking about the lack of hinge, and he said he did,t care about my opinion and that us "young guys" know everything. Oh and the back cut was not stepped, it didnt meet well and it was even on the meet and lower on one side, just asking for it to run at him. I am not the supervisor and I will continue to discuss this with my boss, he is actually a great guy and hopefully will listen to my concerns again. I do prefer the bore cut so I can leave a tab and wedge the tab to break it and send the tree where I want it. But on smaller trees I use a back cut. Thanks again to everyone, maybe I could send him a link to this forum and let him see all of your responses himself.

 

[Fireaxman]

Get some digital pics and send them here. These guys would be glad to analyze the cuts.

Yes, Please. Reading the stumps would be a good exercise and a good education for many of us.

 

[treeseer]

Sorry to hear that you piped up and got put down. Hang in there, and next time don't shoot your mouth off until your brain is loaded--with all the info to carry your argument! (No offense meant)

Again: How often are the mfpa courses held?

Funny thing, Michigan's tree care org has the same acronym.

 

[Dan R Porter]

MFPA (Missouri Forestry Products Association)

Bi-annually I think (It is aimed more towards loggers)

And I had no chance to run my mouth off. He shot me down before I even finished my sentence, so I figured whats the use of explaining any further...he didn't care to listen.

If pics of stumps is what you want, I will post some mistakes/good cuts in the Trivia section for people to read, They taught us how to read/score cuts at the MFPA training. Will post them ASAP.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

"Thou shalt not cut through the Hinge!"​

The hinge is the only control; don't re-lease any earlier than necessary. The openness of the faces; mechanically dictates how long tree can ride hinge. Wider hinge, generally more controlling time over speed and direction. Crossing the face cuts/dutching can make a "Face within a Face" ("Professional Timber Falling- a Procedural Approach" Douglas Dent's felling bible). The face within a face; allows the smaller/ inner face to rule; like you had made a narrow/ low control face to begin with; and didn't allow very much arc on hinge and face closes immediately and suddenly while tree is still shaking over your head. We are like circus performers bluffing around multi-ton elephants by tapping a stick on them; to usher their direction; everything must be right or we get crushed!

This is especially true if (in conventional facing for example) you cut the lower/horizontal facecut too far; bypassing the slanted face. This can easily end up turning into a deadly Barber Chair.

You can also add pix to this 3 year olde thread: Hinge Forensics; dedicated to the proposition that hinges can be read after the fact, to give clues to where the tree was leaning, if correct cuts were made etc.

Cutting thru hinge and crossing faces are common newbie mistakes; cutting thru hinge into a crossed face (both mistakes at once) can be very deadly to all around. Felling is making approximations as to existing forces and needed cuts to control them; that takes experience and unending openness to growth IMLHO.

 

[Manco]

This thread reminded me of when I first started doing tree work. ( I'm lucky to still be alive) The owner of a rather large tree service or any of the workers for that matter, didn't have any idea what a notch or back-cut was. A job interview consisted of- can you climb to that limb, tie this knot, then come down. I still remember him saying to one of the foreman, " I think we have us a climber". And also thinking, "doesn't sound like a big deal ". Lack of knowledge to the fact that you don't possess the needed knowledge is VERY dangerous. And also leads to a false sense of, "I know all I need to know and anything you show me is useless to me." That way of thinking was the norm for this place. Well enough of that, I could go on for days with horror stories, back to improper notches. I was either 19 or 20, up a 90 foot pine, had roped out some large limbs that were over a power line and ready to try my hand at dropping my first large tree top. Armed with a small Stihl tree saw and just the right mix of cockiness, stupidity and ignorance I proceeded to cut the top out with the only method of ignorance I knew. (Cutting through the tree from the back side at a 45 degree angle toward the direction I wanted it to fall) I had a pull rope in the top and a single ground-man straining his a** off trying to get the top to come over. When it finally did start falling the right way, I remember a feeling kinda like a parachutist realizing his chute didn't open ! Didn't have any idea what to expect, lost all realization of the concept of time, fractions of a second seemed like hours. The top fell where it was supposed to but ignorance had me blind-folded to the fact that with just a slice cut like that, I was going to be slammed so hard in the chest by the tree trunk that it would knock both my firmly planted Kleins loose. And leave me bear-hugged around the tree with a still-running tree saw dangling from my saddle. Not sure if the breath had been knocked out of me or I just couldn't breathe right away due to paralyzing fear. (So many dangerous thingscould have went wrong, besides that one)

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I would say it depends on where you are on the crew. Are you the forman, or lead climber?

Is the Boss on site?

Will you be responcible for anything that goes awry on the job?

If you feel the need to CYA, then get the responcibilities in wrighting, because you do not want to be involved in an OSHA investigation.